Joe,
I'm not saying 9-5 is insulting.
I'm also not saying that not being developers is insulting.
Turing complete...
Thats not an argument.
But this is what most RPG programmers say: "i can do everything i want to
do.." etc.
IF, IF you read my posts, you would know that i'm a business type, not a
geek.
Besides, if you are a programmer you are a TECHNICAL person first, business
second.
Yes, second.
Thats your job, computers, programming, yes?
Thats technical, first.
We have enough business types making excel macros.
Then we have business types making RPG programs.
Thats why we have a big mess.
Insulted?
Try brainfuck, the programming language (yes it exists).
It's also turing complete.
There is no argument there Joe.
IF, IF you read my posts you would know i am talking about COSTS.
Its all about costs.
And its your job, as a knowledgable person, to create programs, effectively.
That is, without reasonable costs.
That is, the TOTAL COST IN THE LIFETIME OF A SYSTEM.
How do you that??
You say RPG is the best tool for that. Why??
Aparantly because it has the lowest costs (with respect to features etc).
Another problem is that there are not many RPG'ers out there.
Thats a risk.
So, as a business person, what would YOU do?
IF you start from a clean state.
You would buy an AS/400 (sorry IBM i) and build software using RPGIV (and
others).
Is that good business?
For an AS/400 shop yes.
I wouldn''t. Why? Because of COSTS and RISKS.
Look at any AS/400 site and all the monolithic RPGIII programs.
The green screens (can't get rid of it because of the monolithic programs).
Some service program here and there, maybe, but thats it.
Is that good business???
For an AS/400 shop, maybe.
Why do many companies in my experience want to get rid of the AS/400?
I try telling them its not the AS/400, it's the software (still using 70's
technology for UI).
I try telling them that i can make DOS programs in Windows, does that make
Windows old or bad (you know what i mean).
In a way it is also about my carreer and opportunities i invested in.
It is a lot of wasted time, for me, and i better got off this platform 15
years ago.
All those "business like" programmers keep holding everything back, until
retirement or everything falls apart, which ever comes first.
Is that cost effective.
Its BS, Joe, be honest.
It is about their own best interest.
Not trying to create a cost effective solution, just do you're thing and get
you're salary at the end of the month.
Yes, that is good business, and easy business.
I think "easy" is the key word here.
Learn RPG in two weeks and voila, you have a nice paying job for next x
years.
Just rerun that trick again and again, for 20 years.
If i talk about OO and the like i'm talking about costs.
Read the posts.
If you have to recompile all RPG programs because of a little change in a
field.
Is that goos business??
For you maybe. Not for the business (and the risks)
Yes, just use a CMS, somebody said.
There you have it. Buy my tool.
Nobody reacted on my suggestion to access the db through one layer, by
calling a program.
Instead, the way to do this in RPG land is to simply access each file
directly from each RPG program.
And when something changes, no sweat.
We "just" use this tool, many hours etc etc. Instead of a little bit upfront
thinking, and knowledge of software architecture etc.
That is what you get with "business" types.
Just like the 1000's of excel macro's those business types make.
Just, these business type don't call themselves "programmers".
And why do you think we have 1000's excel macros doing all kind of things.
Because the IT dept. is too busy.... with... you guessed it (maintenance).
Cynical?
You bet
On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 1:09 PM, Joe Pluta <joepluta@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:
On 7/13/2011 5:22 AM, john e wrote:
why the heck do we have a bif for xml parsing when a service program is
The RPG community wants "native" UI, whatever that means (yes EXFMT).
It's another world now, since the 90's (see my reference to
client/server).
I'd be happy if you'd stop saying what "the RPG community" wants, since
I consider myself part of the community and you don't seem to have any
idea what I want.
Most RPG developers, in my experience, are not developers.
They are office workers, doing what has to be done that day, from 9 to 5.
If anybody here is insulted by this observation, i'm sorry.
I'm insulted by the fact that you think 9-to-5 work is insulting. Some
of the best programmers I ever met came from business backgrounds, not
Computer Science. That's because they knew EXACTLY what the computer is
- a tool to get business done.
It's a fact. Most people on this list *are* developers.
But that is not enough, it's 1%.
Actually, many of the people on this list are computer geeks, some
geekier than others. The posts become philosophical discussions about
parameter types and OO concepts and rambling language comparisons. None
of these have much to do with development in the business world, which
is the focus of all of these lists. Because like it or not, if
computers didn't do something productive in the business world, most of
us wouldn't have jobs.
A couple of points here. First, what can be done in any Turing complete
language can be done in any other. And second, pretty much every
programming task was accomplished in the 1960s and we're just
reimplementing them.
Hyperbole? Perhaps. But closer to the truth than some of these
discussions, I think.
Joe
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