The pulse of the Nation (Was: Please vote for Syntax check in /FREE!)

jt,

I for one would like to see the list return to a happy civil place of
discussion.  To further that goal I offer you an apology for my post the
other day, due to outside circumstances the tone with which I addressed
you was severly more aggressive than I usually allow myself, so for my
tone I apologize.

For the message, however, I cannot.  You speak of facts and knowing what
RPG coders need, but you have shown no more "metrics" than anyone else.
In one sentence you say you are not for letting votes rule the compiler
direction and in the next you attack the compiler team because they
failed to implement your suggestion to make SEU more like a Word
Processor.  Why is your desire for that any more relevant than my desire
for procedure overloading?  

It appears that you unfortunately fall under the camp that thinks if we
don't all agree with you then we must not know what we're doing. 
Understanding that about you now convinces me that I will never convince
you of anything.  As for your litany of projects you've worked on, good
for you, but it doesn't mean you have any insight into the RPG community
beyond the collective pantheon of experience found on this list.

I cannot fathom the difficulties the compiler team faces in deciding
what to implement and how, so I don't presume to lecture them.  Instead,
they ask us what we think is needed and I choose to participate, as do
you.  If you think your knowledge and experience means you should have
more influence then apply with IBM to work on the compiler team,
otherwise let the process work.

I understand fully your point about the statistical quality of polling
and how you seem to think that this list alone is responsible for
getting changes made.  I don't disagree that this is a small group, but
it is insulting to the compiler team to assume that they don't.  Along
similar lines, in every industry there are leaders and followers.  The
leaders typically go in new directions and eventually the followers tag
along, if they didn't you'd still be driving a horse and buggy and not
have indoor plumbing.

This post is getting too long and I do want to answer a couple of your
points directly:

On Fri, 2003-10-17 at 04:51, jt wrote:
> Perhaps you can supply an actual example from a typical Business
> Application, because Buck and Joel Cochran did not manage to come with any.
> All they showed was that they would prefer to wait for a new feature, rather
> than implement the examples they gave in currently available technology.
> Plus some of their specific examples (as others in addition to myself have
> pointed out) would not even WORK.  And the examples showed, rather, the
> STRENGTH of procedures instead of the the value of procedure overloading.

The personal slight aside, I showed a perfectly legitimate and easy to
understand example considering dates:

monthString = getMonth( dateField );
monthString = getMonth( timestampField );
monthNumber = getMonth( dateField );
monthNumber = getMonth( timestampField );

Based on name, parameter list, and return value there are FOUR distinct
signatures here.  To implement this using current technologies you would
need four distinct procedures:

monthString = getMonthStringFromDate( dateField );
monthString = getMonthStringFromTimestamp( timestampField );
monthNumber = getMonthNumberFromDate( dateField );
monthNumber = getMonthNumberFromTimestamp( timestampField );

You say this doesn't show a business case?  In all four of these
procedures the logic is essentially identical, so what you are
suggesting is that having four copies of the same essential logic is
somehow better than having a single set of logic with four entry
methods.  From a maintenance standpoint I'd rather have one piece of
code to maintain rather than four.  

And before you go around claiming that I'd rather wait for a new
feature, I suggest you check the archives going back a few years: what
you'll find is that I have always been a vocal proponent of rolling your
own BIFs.  You might also check the list of procedures I offer for free
on my website, particularly the date routines service program, I think
if you examine it closely you'll see that I've implemented this very
process out of necessity: I'm not waiting for IBM for anything.
http://www.rpgnext.com/docs/rnbdates.php

It's obvious that we disagree on a lot, and I'm actually cool with that,
all I ask is that you not misrepresent me and I will try my best not
misrepresent you.

> I and a some other posters have some no small experience in this regard,
> which I believe the RPG development team lacks.  I would be surprised to
> learn (pleasantly surprised, 'course) if there is much RPG app development
> experience on the team.  But I believe there are a fair number of very vocal
> posters who don't have a real good idea of what RPG even CAN do currently,
> but who like to believe they have a real GOOD idea of where RPG just HAS-ta
> be headed.

So now we don't even know what the language can do?  This is just
inflammatory.  The most vocal people on this list, in whose company I do
not include myself, truly are the experts.  And contrary to your stated
opinions they got that way by using the language, by keeping up with the
changes, by asking questions, and by sharing ideas on this list, in
print, at seminars, and in many other means.  Do they know everything? 
Of course not, but I give them far more credit and respect than you do. 
What I respect the most is that they ask other people how to do things. 
I've seen Bob Cozzi and Jon Paris of all people asking for help.  But
come to think of it, I've never seen you post anything like "how do I do
X ... ", instead you prefer to berate and belittle the opinions of
others.

> And don't recall if I posted or not, but he (and/or she) that determines
> which items get to be voted on has already determined the outcome, for the
> most part, "right from the git-go", right?

That's correct, which brings us full circle to where this discussion
started.  There is a place on the IBM website where anyone can suggest
language enhancements.  In this case, someone started a campaign to see
that their issue was given attention because they are passionate about
the subject.  Please feel free to avail yourself of this same process.

As for me, other than specific rebuts to this posting, I'm out of this
discussion, it has reached the point of diminishing returns.

Joel Cochran
http://www.rpgnext.com