RE: WDSC v5

This whole thread needs to be sent to Phil Coulthard.  Could be wrong but
something tells me he doesn't monitor the rpg list.  

> Send RPG400-L mailing list submissions to
>       rpg400-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>       http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/rpg400-l
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>       rpg400-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>       rpg400-l-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of RPG400-L digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. RE: WDSC v5 (was: SEU vs. ?) (Buck Calabro)
>    2. RE: SEU vs. ? (Scott Klement)
>    3. RE: WDSC v5 (was: SEU vs. ?) (rob@xxxxxxxxx)
>    4. RE: SEU vs. ? (rob@xxxxxxxxx)
>    5. RE: WDSC v5 (was: SEU vs. ?) (Mark Allen)
>    6. RE: WDSC v5 (was: SEU vs. ?) (Buck Calabro)
>    7. RE: WDSC v5 (was: SEU vs. ?) (pgmr@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> message: 1
> date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 11:40:22 -0400 
> from: Buck Calabro <Buck.Calabro@xxxxxxxxxxxx>

> subject: RE: WDSC v5 (was: SEU vs. ?)
> 
> >>so that's a $3000 expense. 
> 
> >If you have a shop of 25 programmers I would have 
> >to say that $3000 won't do too much to your budget 
> >given the payback in PC performance you are going to
> >get and programmer productivity.  
> 
> I'm guessing you never had to argue a budget item before.
> 1) Our department is not the only department that wants
>    to spend money.  We are in competition with everyone
>    else for those very finite dollars.
> 2) The 'payback in PC performance' is very difficult to
>    measure; either in terms of time or money.  Same for
>    programmer productivity.
> 3) The counter-argument runs something like 'You are an 
>    RPG programmer; why not use SEU (for free) like everybody 
>    else?'
> 
> >If you have a bad machine count up the time it takes 
> >you to wait for things to get done or reboot when 
> >it crashes.
> 
> My Win2K box rarely crashes.  I reboot it weekly.  The Win95 box next to it

> rarely crashes (I keep my manuals on it.)  As far as time spent doing PC
> tasks, my PII 450 runs Code, Word and Excel quite well.  My boss can see
> this, and has asked whether the $100 expense will save more than seconds a
> day.  Of course without having the extra memory it isn't possible to tell,
> but that's the point of making an excuse to NOT spend money.
> 
> >That is how I justify new PC's to management.  It isn't so 
> >hard to buy me a new PC when I spend up to 30 minutes a day 
> >waiting for my PC to do stuff 
> 
> A new PC is completely out of the question unless I buy it myself.  25
> developers x 1000 per.  Yeah, THAT's going to happen.  And getting special
> treatment is a no-no in this era of discrimination lawsuits and such.  No,
> everybody has to have the same stuff 'in order to be fair.'  Now ask the
> question this way and see what the answer is: 'If I have to spend the money
> out of my own pocket to buy a PC to run WDSCi for RPG green screen editing,

> is it worth it, given the payback in PC performance and my increased
> productivity?'  In round numbers, we're looking at a thousand dollars US for
> a modern PC/monitor.  The numbers just aren't there for me, and remember: I
> paid for Flex/Edit out of my own pocket because I believed it would make me
> a better programmer (it did!)
> 
> And by the bye, how do you respond when your boss asks how long before you
> 'stop playing with that new stuff and get back to work?'  The theme being
> that the 'learning curve' is an expense too...
> 
> >>If you could send someone to COMMON or RPG World 
> >>would you do that or add the extra memory to the PC's?
> >IMO, without a doubt, add more memory to PC's.  Pretty 
> >much anything that is at those conferences can be 
> >found online (these forums are a good example).
> 
> Interesting take on things.  At some workplaces, the employer simply doesn't
> spend the money at all, and uses the savings to announce that layoffs have

> been averted due to management diligence in cutting expenses.  Sounds
> Dilbert-esque, but that's how it seems to go.
> 
> The economics for moving to RPG IV seem to be argued along the same lines.
> That the learning curve outweighs any perceived benefit.  It's just another
> excuse, of course, but there it is, nonetheless.  The overarching point is
> that expenses are EASY for managers to see and measure, but benefits are
> not.
>   --buck
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> message: 2
> date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 10:44:57 -0500 (CDT)
> from: Scott Klement <klemscot@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> subject: RE: SEU vs. ?
> 
> >
> > Maybe I'm not getting what your say, but isn't it more you want them to
> > do is a version of their clients (CODE, WDSC, OPsNavegator, CA400, etc)
> > that will run under any operating system. ie: Unix, Lynx... etc even the
> > dreaded Windoz?  If so it would have nothing to do with the OS on the
> > iSeries (other than it's interfaces thru API's and LIPI's), but

> > everything to do with a version of the Client code that could run under
> > brand-x OS on a PC
> >
> 
> Yes.  That's more or less what I'm saying.
> 
> However, it's my opinion that the only reason they implemented this stuff
> as PC software is because they couldn't do it on the iSeries, due to the
> lack of a decent GUI interface.   One way that they could solve the
> problem would be to make a GUI for th iSeries and run everthing there,
> so that they don't have to rely on a 3rd party OS.
> 
> But, I'd also be happy if they made their client code work on multiple
> operating systems.   I wouldn't limit it to just PCs, like you stated.
> 
> > They sort of use to have this with CA400 (PCS400) when they did a
> > version for Win-3.x, Win-NT, DOS and OS2 (if I'm understanding you
> > statements correctly), but yes it would make since to have a version
> > that could run some other OS other than Windoz, but I'm sure it's a
> > marketing thing (as well as a support issue).
> 

> Yes, they had the right idea there.  Though, those are basically all
> versions of Windows (except for DOS).
> 
> The really and truly frustrating thing about it is that Eclipse, which is
> the open source project that WDSC is based upon, is an open source project
> that runs on virtually any operating system!!
> 
> I can run Eclipse on my FreeBSD desktop, no problem.  It runs great.
> However, all of the iSeries and RPG stuff that IBM added to it are not
> available.   They took the open/portable Eclipse environment and made it
> only run on Windows for iSeries people.
> 
> You talk about "a marketing thing".   But, IBM's marketing department was
> pushing Java until recently because it's cross-platform.   More recently,
> they've been pushing Linux.   If the programmers had followed this
> marketing strategy and made it work on Linux, or made it true Java so that
> it's cross-platform, I wouldn't have a problem.
> 
> But they didn't.   They took an open platform that works everywhere, and

> against the grain of what their marketing dept has been pushing at us,
> they've forced you to use Windows with it.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> message: 3
> date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 11:02:41 -0500
> from: rob@xxxxxxxxx
> subject: RE: WDSC v5 (was: SEU vs. ?)
> 
> Easy,
> 
> You don't ask for all developers in one chunk.  You ask one at a time.  No 
> one turns down a $59 expense.  However, if they have to get a manager to 
> sign off on any expense over $x then piecemeal it.
> 
> An IBMer told me of one person who managed to expense a mainframe this 
> way.
> 
> Accounting has respect for those who can play the game.
> 
> Rob Berendt
> -- 
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary 
> safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." 
> Benjamin Franklin 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> message: 4
> date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 11:07:38 -0500
> from: rob@xxxxxxxxx
> subject: RE: SEU vs. ?
> 
> Scott what you say makes sense.  And we are looking at replacing windows 

> on the desktops and servers with Linux.  However, performance is 
> important.  IBM has done great things to increase iSeries Navigator with 
> performance, but they still have a long way to go in other performance 
> area's.  I'd use it even more if performance was better.
> 
> For the short term I am willing to sacrifice some openness for 
> performance.
> 
> Hopefully they will get there before Linux goes extinct.  :-)
> 
> Rob Berendt
> -- 
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary 
> safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." 
> Benjamin Franklin 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> message: 5
> date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 12:10:37 -0400
> from: Mark Allen <mallen@xxxxxxxx>
> subject: RE: WDSC v5 (was: SEU vs. ?)
> 
> I've also used the tactic to get vendors to lower price
> 
> Hey Mr. Vendor I can approve myself anything 5K or less, anything over
> 5K has to go to higher management and it could take 6 weeks or not get
> approved.  If you'll lower the price from 5,495 to 4995 I'll get a PO

> out today   <vbg>
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of rob@xxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 12:03 PM
> To: RPG programming on the AS400 / iSeries
> Subject: RE: WDSC v5 (was: SEU vs. ?)
> 
> 
> Easy,
> 
> You don't ask for all developers in one chunk.  You ask one at a time.
> No 
> one turns down a $59 expense.  However, if they have to get a manager to
> 
> sign off on any expense over $x then piecemeal it.
> 
> An IBMer told me of one person who managed to expense a mainframe this 
> way.
> 
> Accounting has respect for those who can play the game.
> 
> Rob Berendt
> -- 
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary 
> safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." 
> Benjamin Franklin 
> _______________________________________________
> This is the RPG programming on the AS400 / iSeries (RPG400-L) mailing
> list To post a message email: RPG400-L@xxxxxxxxxxxx To subscribe,
> unsubscribe, or change list options,

> visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/rpg400-l
> or email: RPG400-L-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives
> at http://archive.midrange.com/rpg400-l.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> message: 6
> date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 12:15:34 -0400 
> from: Buck Calabro <Buck.Calabro@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> subject: RE: WDSC v5 (was: SEU vs. ?)
> 
> >You don't ask for all developers in one chunk.  You 
> >ask one at a time.  No one turns down a $59 expense.  
> 
> If only that were true.
>   --buck
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> message: 7
> date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 11:28:09 -0500 
> from: pgmr@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> subject: RE: WDSC v5 (was: SEU vs. ?)
> 
> I'm changing all my prices to 4995... 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Allen [mailto:mallen@xxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 11:11 AM
> To: 'RPG programming on the AS400 / iSeries'
> Subject: RE: WDSC v5 (was: SEU vs. ?)
> 
> 
> I've also used the tactic to get vendors to lower price
> 

> Hey Mr. Vendor I can approve myself anything 5K or less, anything over
> 5K has to go to higher management and it could take 6 weeks or not get
> approved.  If you'll lower the price from 5,495 to 4995 I'll get a PO
> out today   <vbg>
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of rob@xxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 12:03 PM
> To: RPG programming on the AS400 / iSeries
> Subject: RE: WDSC v5 (was: SEU vs. ?)
> 
> 
> Easy,
> 
> You don't ask for all developers in one chunk.  You ask one at a time.
> No 
> one turns down a $59 expense.  However, if they have to get a manager to
> 
> sign off on any expense over $x then piecemeal it.
> 
> An IBMer told me of one person who managed to expense a mainframe this 
> way.
> 
> Accounting has respect for those who can play the game.
> 
> Rob Berendt
> -- 
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary 
> safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." 
> Benjamin Franklin 

> _______________________________________________
> This is the RPG programming on the AS400 / iSeries (RPG400-L) mailing
> list To post a message email: RPG400-L@xxxxxxxxxxxx To subscribe,
> unsubscribe, or change list options,
> visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/rpg400-l
> or email: RPG400-L-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives
> at http://archive.midrange.com/rpg400-l.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> This is the RPG programming on the AS400 / iSeries (RPG400-L) mailing list
> To post a message email: RPG400-L@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options,
> visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/rpg400-l
> or email: RPG400-L-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives
> at http://archive.midrange.com/rpg400-l.
> 
> ---
> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

> Version: 6.0.487 / Virus Database: 286 - Release Date: 6/1/03
>  
> 
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.487 / Virus Database: 286 - Release Date: 6/1/03
>  
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> This is the RPG programming on the AS400 / iSeries (RPG400-L) digest list
> To post a message email: RPG400-L@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options,
> visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/rpg400-l
> or email: RPG400-L-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives
> at http://archive.midrange.com/rpg400-l.
> 
> 
> 
> End of RPG400-L Digest, Vol 2, Issue 376
> ****************************************