Re: No Power7 to Power8 MES upgrade option, entitlements, cores, etc. -- MIDRANGE-L

I believe I understand that you feel once a job runs in a particular processor core it will always run there. That is not the case. All processors on the server have access to all memory, certainly NUMA rules are in play so best performance is if it runs in the same core but it certainly does not have to.

This also is improved in POWER8 as the 'distance' to memory on other cores has been reduced.

- Larry "DrFranken" Bolhuis

www.frankeni.com
www.iDevCloud.com
www.iInTheCloud.com

On 4/30/2014 6:04 PM, Steinmetz, Paul wrote:

Nathan,

Why and where does it say that a job will be dispatched to all available cores, because that is not the case.
It might be because if something about a job is already is already active, (object is already in memory), then any new jobs will remain with the same core because of the related object.

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: MIDRANGE-L [mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Nathan Andelin
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 5:27 PM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: Re: No Power7 to Power8 MES upgrade option, entitlements, cores, etc.

Paul,

I was surprised and puzzled by your comment about "single-threaded" RPG programs using only 1 core. As already indicated, a workload of say 1,200 program activations will be dispatched to all available cores, even though the Jobs may be all single-threaded.

What about using one of our unused cores for an Apache web server instance under Linux? If your IBM i server handles HTTP workloads, you could offload SSL encryption to a Linux core running as a Reverse-Proxy.

Nathan.

On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 3:11 PM, Roberto José Etcheverry Romero < yggdrasil.raiker@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Paul,

Being a SE/CE in a third world country i can verify that claim. I have
machines ranging from 730 and 150 to power7 under maintenance. In fact
some clients buy upgrades and then those machines get sold in turn to
other clients for update. I believe the oldest OS we have under
maintenance is v4r4...

On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 5:43 PM, Steinmetz, Paul
<PSteinmetz@xxxxxxxxxx

wrote:

Larry,

I guess years back the older gear kept a higher trade value for the
used market, probably not case because things are changing so fast.
When our CE was here this week, he told me there still
using/installing

P4

in 3rd world countries.

I'm using 3 of the 8 for i5/OS. The other 5 are active cores, but no

i5/OS

license.
BP originally tried selling me a 12-core, but I found it could be
done with an 8-core.
You almost have to be your own SE.
I see the issue with Power8 coming.
If you want the 11 PCI slots or the higher memory cap, which we
probably will, you need to buy more cores, ever though we will not license.

1 socket S814
§§ 6-core
§§ 8-core

2 socket S814
§§ 6-core or 12-core
§§ 8-core or 16-core
§§ 24-core

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: MIDRANGE-L [mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of DrFranken
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 4:25 PM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: Re: No Power7 to Power8 MES upgrade option, entitlements,
cores, etc.

Aha, you are confusing the parts you purchased vs the parts that go
back to IBM in an MES. They can only count the stuff that comes back
so processor box (CEC) and CPUs and planar board and whatnot. All
the stuff you keep doesn't count and if you keep it that's because
you perceive

value

enough to keep it. That's why they can't get to the number.

I don't think you got snookered, sure some BPs aren't as honest as
others and some do 'creative' things to bend IBMs rules but when it
comes to IRS type things they can't really cheat that.

These days 1200 jobs are not really that much either. My lab server
with JUST ME and the *ADMIN server running (No printers either) has
207 jobs running.

So at your next upgrade leverage this information to purchase fewer
cores to save money. Sadly you can't transfer those cores to anyone else.

- Larry "DrFranken" Bolhuis

www.frankeni.com
www.iDevCloud.com
www.iInTheCloud.com

On 4/30/2014 4:18 PM, Steinmetz, Paul wrote:

Larry,

I'm confused on the P7 to P8 that P7 would not qualify from IRS

standpoint. I would like to see those IRS numbers.

Almost all my current P7 features will migrate to a P8, so that

statement doesn't make sense.

So there stating that my current P7 value is less than 20% of
300,000
(60,000) Back when I went from P5 to P7, yes it did, nothing migrated.

So maybe we got snowed, or someone got a piece of one of our P5 to
P7

transfers.

Maybe P5 rules were different.

As far as a 2nd processor being used, it amazes me too. I'm sure
with a

different mix, more Java and more SQL, then yes.

I wish I could show you a MPG graph, cores used.
I questioned this with IBM and several others years back.
They said purchased processors that you really don't need.
There is no setting to force the usage of additional processors.
Does anyone have Power gear with active processors with no
licenses. We

have 5 active cores out of 8 sitting idle.

Can't really use those cores for anything?

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: MIDRANGE-L [mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of DrFranken
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 3:55 PM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: Re: No Power7 to Power8 MES upgrade option, entitlements,

cores, etc.

They are always working within the rules.

Jim is right on the IRS part. I believe the stated rule is that
when

you

return your old system it must retain 20% of it's initial value in
order

to

qualify as an upgrade. They could not meet that standard with POWER7
to
POWER8 on the low end. Potentially on larger servers later as was
also mentioned.

This is really a statement of how fast the industry as a whole is

moving

forward. WHat was 'state of the art' just a few years ago is now
below 'ho-hum' in many cases.

As to IBM i licenses that rule hasn't really changed. Yes there
used to

be certain licenses that were part of the base box and as such were
'welded' to that server. When you upgraded you could not transfer
those base licenses. Often this didn't really hurt much as the
increase in CPW per core has frequently meant that fewer cores were
needed and in other cases the drop in P-group more than made up for it.

With POWER7 and I believe PWOER6 as well there are no cores that
are

'base' and so what you have should transfer to a new server.

Your expectation that no more than one core is used is out of the

ordinary for sure. Back when we installed the very first 2-core
machine

in

my customer base (a model 310) their constraint was single thread
RPG

batch

so we wondered if the second core would do anything. Turned out both

cores

maxed right out, likely one running the RPG and the other doing I/O
and

DB

work plus the O/S code.

- Larry "DrFranken" Bolhuis

www.frankeni.com
www.iDevCloud.com
www.iInTheCloud.com

On 4/30/2014 3:46 PM, Steinmetz, Paul wrote:

Jim,

That's not totally true on transfers. When we went from P5 to P7,
new

purchase, only 2 of our 3 i5/OS licenses would transfer. One had to
stay with the old box.

So we had to anity up (44,000) and purchase anther i5/OS license
to

keep us at 3.

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: MIDRANGE-L [mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Jim Oberholtzer
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 3:44 PM
To: 'Midrange Systems Technical Discussion'
Subject: RE: No Power7 to Power8 MES upgrade option,
entitlements,

cores, etc.

Keep in mind that IBM does not always have the ability to offer
an

upgrade with a same serial number option. Reason: Internal Revenue
Service rules.

If the new asset is sufficiently more powerful than the old
asset, IRS

requires a new serial number so they can get their skin out of it in
the new depreciation schedule. I think that is the situation with
the

current

batch of P8 boxes.

Even when the serial number changes, IBM will transfer your
software

to

the new box and since that's the biggest dollar value of the deal

(usually)

it's not nearly as bad as it used to be.

--
Jim Oberholtzer
Chief Technical Architect
Agile Technology Architects

-----Original Message-----
From: MIDRANGE-L [mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Steinmetz, Paul
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 2:19 PM
To: 'Midrange Systems Technical Discussion'
Subject: No Power7 to Power8 MES upgrade option, entitlements,
cores,

etc.

1) Is IBM doing away with MES upgrades?
No MES upgrade path from Power7 to Power8 Over the years, IBM
always

gave you an upgrade option, up to a point.

If you upgraded within that timeframe, you saved $$$$, if not,
the

new

machine would be quite a bit more, you lost all value from old machine.

This is what kept you current.
We had our same serial# for over 10 years from our original 510
(mid

90's) Also, on MES, all entitlements would transfer.

On a new machine, the base entitlement had to stay with the old

machine, so you had to repurchase an additional entitlement to
remain at the same level.

9406 AS/400 RISC Series Processor was our original 510. (mid
90's)
9406 System Unit MES # 19262 from 510 to 640 upgrade. (2nd
quarter
98)
9406 System Unit MES # N26616 from 640 to 830 upgrade. (2nd
quarter
2001)
9606 System Unit MES # 129707-6 from 830 to 550 upgrade (3rd
quarter
2005)
8205 new purchase - (1st quarter 2012)
S814 new purchase - TBD

2) Also related to number of cores.
We currently have an 8-core 8205, but only 3 cores licensed for i5/os.
The remaining 5 active cores are useless.
We needed to purchase them to get the 8205 features we needed.

I see the same issue, but only worse with Power8, number of cores
has

increased.

Also, not sure if many know this, but if you have more than 1
full

processor allocated to an LPAR, and your running RPG or RPGIV, that
2nd processor will probably never be used.

RPG and RPGIV is all single threaded, most work will always only
use

the 1st processor.

Way back on Power5, our BP sold us additional processors with the

perception that more work will get done quicker, not the case.

Thank You
_____
Paul Steinmetz
IBM i Systems Administrator

Pencor Services, Inc.
462 Delaware Ave
Palmerton Pa 18071

610-826-9117 work
610-826-9188 fax
610-349-0913 cell
610-377-6012 home

psteinmetz@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:psteinmetz@xxxxxxxxxx>
http://www.pencor.com/

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