So back to my point of putting in a design change request to have this fixed. If we can do SWA with the data in SAVSYS we can finally do bare metal backups like you can do on Windows Platforms (using Volume shadow copy), or Linux platforms (using LVM Snapshots). There would never be a thread about backing up the system while trying to keep everything running ever again.
These features are part of the OS in Windows and Linux. No need for replicating to another machine and backing up that machine (Rube Goldberg backup is what I call this option), SAN copys (crazy expensive option), Buying mirror products (crazy expensive option again and needlessly complex), Flash copy (apparently requires the system to be down, of course not an option in a highly available environment).
Backing up an OS (every single storage block of it) should be something the OS can do out of the box. In this day and age I expect nothing less. If it doesn't provide it, I look at it with inferiority.
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Harman [mailto:roger_harman@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 5:07 PM
To: 'Midrange Systems Technical Discussion'
Subject: RE: Back ups with High Availability Web Server
Meant to include this link. SWA is not an option for SAVSYS.
http://pic.dhe.ibm.com/infocenter/iseries/v6r1m0/index.jsp?topic=/rzaiu/rzai
urzaiu310.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger Harman
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 2:58 PM
To: 'Midrange Systems Technical Discussion'
Subject: RE: Back ups with High Availability Web Server
You don't.
From the documentation on SAVSYS....
<snip>
Restrictions:
All subsystems must be inactive before the SAVSYS command can be specified.
</snip>
-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Matt Olson
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 2:33 PM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: RE: Back ups with High Availability Web Server
Rob,
I understand that you can not do SAVSYS unless all subsystems are inactive.
How do I do a SWA with SAVSYS?
Matt
-----Original Message-----
From: rob@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:rob@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 10:20 AM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: RE: Back ups with High Availability Web Server
Matt,
If you really are serious about trying to understand saving and restoring data on IBM i then I suggest you at least try to read some of the material out there. I would start out with
http://pic.dhe.ibm.com/infocenter/iseries/v7r1m0/topic/rzahg/rzahgbackup.htm
Yes you can do save while active. But you can also NOT use save while active. So, when you say stuff like "Why is it then that GO SAVE, option
21 ends all subsystems?" it sounds sarcastic. I do not think your question is genuine, like you really care why it ends all subsystems. When you are talking about totally different operating systems you are going to have to expect there are some differences in operation. You will have to learn how to open your mind and try to understand. One of Stephen Covey's books was
"7 habits of Highly Effective People". In there, one of the habits was "seek first to understand". Read the book. If a semi driver was to jump into my car and the first thing he noticed was there was no clutch it doesn't necessarily make my car worthless.
Another point. Someone like you, coming from a different platform, can challenge us. And open our minds to different possibilities. Cross platform comparisons are good. However, we have to learn to respect each other and not try to belittle each other.
One other thing, the backup link above is not the "end all / be all".
There are other alternatives. There are things like:
- replicating your data to another machine with a high availability solution and doing your backups from there.
- Some other replication solutions, forgive me if I have the wrong term, but perhaps Metro Mirror or some such thing?
- Flash copy. I really do not know much about it at all. I did a little reading about it at:
https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/community/wikis/home?lang=en#!/wiki/IBM%2
0Backup%2C%20Recovery%20and%20Media%20Services%20%28BRMS%29%20for%20i/page/F
lashCopy
having to power down the system was a bit of a shocker, or is that how other platforms work with flash copy?
IBM i administrators like to be able to do both full system restores or granular, individual object restores, from the same backup. There is one command that is supposed to save your entire system and not allow a granular restore. That is SAVSTG. If you aren't currently using it do NOT bother trying to study it. You do not want to use it. And I will leave it at that for now.
If you are guesting a partition on another partition of IBM i you can save the entire guest by saving the storage area for that guest on the host.
You cannot do a granular restore from that though.
Rob Berendt
--
IBM Certified System Administrator - IBM i 6.1 Group Dekko Dept 1600 Mail
to: 2505 Dekko Drive
Garrett, IN 46738
Ship to: Dock 108
6928N 400E
Kendallville, IN 46755
http://www.dekko.com
From: Matt Olson <Matt.Olson@xxxxxxxx>
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion <midrange-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 11/13/2013 09:43 AM
Subject: RE: Back ups with High Availability Web Server
Sent by: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Why is it then that GO SAVE, option 21 ends all subsystems? That is definitely not save while active.
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Wilt [mailto:charles.wilt@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 7:04 PM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: Re: Back ups with High Availability Web Server
I don't see much difference between VSS and IBM i's Save While Active...
Except that SWA has been available since at least 1997 or 1996...probably longer.
The problem is too many shops don't bother to use it.
Charles
On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 4:25 PM, Matt Olson <Matt.Olson@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
First question is have you ever restored one of these? How does the
operating system come up when you do that?
Yes, comes up in recovery mode the first bootup, subsequent bootups
are normal.
Second is what are you doing with those servers? Are these hosting
large Oracle or MSSQL Databases or are they file and print servers? Or
are they just AD members that are used for remote desktop for example.
100GB database servers, print servers, file servers, web servers, you
name it. Everything in windows these days have volume shadow copy
providers.
IBM i really needs something like Windows volume shadow copy service
so you can achieve 100% up time during backups.
This is the only reason why I see AS400 shops are down periodically,
had the database been hosted on one of a windows box we would have
much better uptime.
-----Original Message-----
From: DrFranken [mailto:midrange@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 3:21 PM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: Re: Back ups with High Availability Web Server
Matt,
First question is have you ever restored one of these? How does the
operating system come up when you do that?
Second is what are you doing with those servers? Are these hosting
large Oracle or MSSQL Databases or are they file and print servers? Or
are they just AD members that are used for remote desktop for example.
There is a large difference between a transaction oriented system
and a system hosting many flat (or 'stream') files.
- Larry "DrFranken" Bolhuis
www.frankeni.com
www.iDevCloud.com
www.iInTheCloud.com
On 11/12/2013 4:06 PM, Matt Olson wrote:
IBM really needs to fix this issue. Put in a Design Change Request
to
allow for online backups like you can do with Windows. We do full
(bare
metal) backups of our windows machines all the time, no downtime
required.
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