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From: Buck

It's nothing particularly deep I'm saying here. If these shops had web
experience, they'd already have their web apps deployed and they
probably won't be interested in switching to EGL. And if they were
interested, they probably don't need a tutorial on how to attach a JSP
to a data source. EGL in the System i market space seems aimed at web
newbies, and by definition they haven't got the skills (yet) to support
a web application.

We have no argument, no disagreement. All I ever said was that this
community ought to spend more time on the basics and less time on 'new,
now easier than ever before!'

Okay, I see your point. If folks understood JSF completely, they could
hand-code the JSF, and they could write the JSP Model 2 code that allows
them to pass data from an RPG program to the web page. And thus their
programs would be less fragile. Those people don't need EGL, so by
definition those that need EGL are the people least suited to use it.

It's a valid criticism.

I guess my difference here is that I see EGL as SDA for the web. It
provides a WYSIWYG editor to allow you to create web pages that contain
dynamic data. It removes the grunt work of having to hand-code the various
tags that position the data, or that pass data to and from a servlet.

It's very much like SDA. You could use the DSM APIs to write every byte of
data to the 5250 screen yourself, or you could use SDA to create a display
file to remove most of the work for you. Except in extreme circumstances, I
think that the work hidden by SDA is something that really does need to be
hidden from the programmer; few programmers need to know exactly how the
5250 screen works.

There are times, though, when understanding the 5250 becomes important, and
once in a while you see a newbie question that makes it clear they don't,
for example, understand the need for an attribute byte between two fields.
But I wouldn't take SDA away from them; it makes them too productive.

Similarly, the productivity boost from EGL as opposed to hand-coding JSP
Model 2 is enough to make it worthwhile. Yes, you ought to understand JSP
first, but that's up to you. EGL doesn't stop you from learning JSP, any
more than SDA stops you from learning the 5250 data stream.

And the nice thing is that it generates the source code, so that hopefully
the programmer will take the time to go in and look at the generated code.

Anyway, I see your point. I don't have a good answer. I do know that
nowhere near enough people are learning the web, and a lot of that has to do
with Java being perceived as too difficult and JSP Model 2 too complex.
I've tried to fight that argument for a long time, and I for one will still
teach it to anyone who wants to learn it.

But for those who have been convinced that the JSP route is too hard,
perhaps EGL can get them there quickly and at the same time provide a route
to self-reliance.

Joe


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