RE: opinions on "good news/bad news"... picking Websphere or MS .ASPor .NET

Joe, 

Don't shake your head too sadly.  Remember because of our product sets we 
have to be very conversant in both Java and .Net stuff. 

Besides I still love you man !! :-)

My new mantra lately has been interoperability between platforms. 

1.) You're right on the RCP client stuff.  That looks cool.  Haven't had 
much time to play with it yet, so this could have some merit. The only 
problem is that all your apps will look Eclipsish from what I've seen :-)  


2.) I agree on the preference thing for the dev environments.  I have over 
12 years on MS environments and just over 2 on the Eclipse/WDSC stuff, so 
of course there is a built-in bias for the MS stuff.   I continue to force 
myself to use the Eclipse stuff because it's needed for developing Java 
stuff.  It's kind of like eating asparagus.  I don't always like the 
flavor, but I will eat it :-)

Seriously though WDSC is pretty good. 

3.) On Web Services, I'll have to check out the JAXB stuff.  We've been 
using Axis so far for Java web services so far. 

4.) In .Net you can use VB.Net, C# or J# to accomplish almost the same 
things because they all ride on top of the Common Language Runtime. Pretty 
cool in my opinion.  VB.Net can definitely be used for Enterprise Class 
Apps because it's the CLR that everything compiles down to just like the 
Java bytecode stuff, so once compiled language no longer matters.  It's 
all about the bytecode man !!  Very cool stuff !!

OK, I have ever used J#, but I had to include it because it's available. 
Actually with IKVM I can use most of the base Sun Java 1.4 stuff including 
JDBC, so J# will  not be needed by me. 

5.) Actually using the ASP.Net web stuff on other environments is pretty 
easy now because you can use Mainsoft to run web apps on Tomcat or 
Websphere or Websphere Portal Server.  And guess what that means.   Native 
iSeries Support for ASP.Net apps !!  Yeah baby !!  Do behave. 

Mono also has its XSP web server which will run ASP.Net cross platform. 
Not sure about on the iSeries yet. 

6.) Haven't played with EGL yet.  I've played with JSF a little bit and it 
looks to be closer to a MS style drag-and-drop web builder. It's getting 
there :-)

7.) Well, so far the IKVM stuff with our compiled version of JT400 has 
been ROCK solid.  You're using JT400 in your Java apps, right ?   Well 
we're using it in our .Net apps and since we do have access to the source 
if needed we can support it ourselves.  Not all shops can do that but 
since we develop commercial software and also understand the IKVM/JT400 
stuff I think it's safe to say that we can commercially support it. 

I have to tell you there's nothing like having access to all the native 
400 stuff from .Net programs.  Remote Command, Program Call, JDBC, Record 
Level Access, Data Queues, Data Areas, etc...    We actually wrote our own 
high-level wrapper around JT400 to make it's use even easier for the 
average VB or iSeries programmer to learn.  I just gave a 2-day class on 
our toolbox and had a customer up and running writing guiized sub-filish 
apps in .Net at the end of the class. 

Oh, and let's not forget sub-second response time to 400 resources.  You 
know that because I believe you use JT400 all the time. 

In any case both you and I are providing our opinions as food for thought. 


Ultimately each developer will choose his/her own path, but the reality is 
that all iSeries developers need to know HTML in some form and at least 
get started with Java or .Net programming to some extent. 

Even though RPG isn't dead and never will be, we need to keep modernizing 
our skills.

I hope our banter helps someone out there :-)

Regards,
Richard Schoen
RJS Software Systems Inc. 
"Providing Your....iNFORMATION NOW!"
Email: richard@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Web Site: http://www.rjssoftware.com
Tel: (952) 898-3038
Fax: (952) 898-1781
Toll Free: (888) RJSSOFT

message: 3
date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 16:15:19 -0500
from: "Joe Pluta" <joepluta@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
subject: RE: opinions on "good news/bad news"... picking Websphere or
                 MS              .ASPor .NET

From: richard@xxxxxxxxxxx

Richard, Richard, Richard... <shaking head sadly>

1.) Websphere/Java Dev

Longer rampup and learning time.  (Typically limited to web development,
web services or clunky GUI interfaces. )

Gimme a break.  WDSC itself is a Java GUI, and it's on par with anything
Microsoft has ever done.  The RCP (Rich Client Platform) of Eclipse is 
built
on top of SWT, which is an incredible interface.  And (you'll hear this a
lot in this email) you're not locked into Microsoft.  The same programs
looks and runs great on Windows, Linux, Unix, and Mac.

WDSC/Eclipse takes more getting used to than Visual Studio env.

Oh snark.  I HATE parts of VS.  Much of it is counter-intuitive to me,
because I cam from Visual Age for Java.  You, on the other hand, came from
years and years of VB, so you like it.  I really think it's a preference
thing.  One thing about Eclipse is that it is VERY user-customizable; far
more so than VS.  And you're not locked into Microsoft.

Can do web services, but the environment setup can be a pain.

I used JAXB in Eclipse.  I simple copied all the JAR files into my lib
folder, pasted in the code from the example, and I was running Google
queries.  And you're not locked into Microsoft.

That being said, our enterprise workflow engine is written in Java and 

it

works well, but the Java development environment is not always for the
faint of heart.

And VB is not necessarily for industrial strength development.  A lot
depends on your mind set.  And of course... with Java you're not locked 
into
Microsoft.

Awesome Windows GUI app development tools

The Windows stuff is FAR better for thick client development than it is 
for
web development.  And while you can potentially use the web stuff on other
platforms, it's pretty touch and go.

Have you tried EGL and JSF?  Pretty fantastic drag-n-drop GUI builder for
the Web... and you're not locked into Microsoft.

Choice of C#, VB or J# for languages in the environment.

J#?  J#?!?!?!?  You are kidding me, right?

Can also use Java libraries with IKVM interfaces.  Ex: You can use JT400
API's for queries, program calls, record level access etc... (We've
written a cool, high level .Net wrapper for the JT400 Java toolbox.)

IKVM is pretty cool.  I will definitely look into it some more.  But do 
you
want to commit your mission critical systems to an Open Source package 
that
has no technical support options?

Can compile code to Java binaries that can be run directly on iSeries
(using Mainsoft - http://www.mainsoft.com) or any other box that runs 

Java

binaries.

At least Mainsoft offers support, although I don't know how much it costs.

Can write a base web service in less than 60 seconds.  OK, maybe 120
seconds the first time :-)

You mean expose, say, some VB logic as a web service?  That is pretty 
cool.
How do you deploy it on, say, WebSphere?

Bottom line is that the Visual Studio Environment is easier to learn for
most developers in my opinion, however I've been coding with VB much, 

much

longer than Java so I still have a bias even though we do a lot of cross
platform development too.

Yes you do have a huge bias <g>.  But that's okay.  I'm going to be doing 
a
lot of VS development this summer, so I'll be bugging you for tips. 

Another plus for the .Net side is the Mono open source project where you
can code .Net that runs cross platform.

The jury is still out for me on this project.  It's very interesting, but
I'll wait to see what effect Vista has on this (and IKVM and Mainsoft).

Joe