Re: Jobs (or the lack of....) -- MIDRANGE-L

I am getting a strange sense of deja vu.

The quoted cases against "off-shore" companies seem to have one thread of 
consistency - the fact that the people off-shore do not
speak American.

What does "off-shore" mean - a little boat bobbing up and down on the waves?  
Or a brand new computer centre in India where the cost
of programmers is a huge deal less, otherwise everything is the same as in the 
USA, same computers,(American) same screens (probably
Japanese) -and the people will still expect 40 hours pay for 40 hours work, but 
their expenses differ, (for instance, they don't
have lots of American cars to pay for), and their cost of living is lower 
compared to the USA.

But we can't deny them the option to work in their chosen field, to support 
their family.

The question was does anyone believe a project should come in on time if 
outsourced to another country.

Playing at devil's advocate:- How many projects that are solely managed 
in-house or in-country come in on time, on budget, and
correct?  One reads almost weekly of over-runs in time, or budget, or projects 
dropped because the project wasn't thought through
properly, or of the product - be it software, or cars, or military hardware, 
etc etc having to be recalled or have fixes applied
because it was rushed out too early.

Putting yourself in the position of the person responsible to shareholders - if 
the local (ie American) people can produce a product
that has a 95% chance of working properly and a non-American company can 
produce the same product but with say, 90% reliability -
that 5% variance in reliability may save a lot more in initial costs and also 
outweigh the cost of fixing any problems.

Unfortunately that's business decisions for you.

One thing I come up against too often is that the IT departments are too 
protective of what they do and don't wish to take on board
new tools that can assist them - in some cases by automating some of their work 
processes - no I'm not looking for a cheap plug for
my products - and so by keeping everything to themselves they create a backlog 
of work and it becomes too expensive to keep the
development in house as "management" will see that in order to develop a new 
suite of programs will take a certain amount of
programmer-dollars whereas outsourcing may cost a lot less in say 
programmer-rupees.

So by the time the decision is taken it is probably too late to recover.

I hope the above makes sense.

Jamie Coles



----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Nelson" <p_nelson-br@pop.inil.com>
To: <midrange-l@midrange.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: Jobs (or the lack of....)


Jenny,

It's not about wartime casualties, or racism, or any country's trade
policies. It's about protecting one's ability to make a living for one's
family. Thanks for bringing the discussion back to the original topic, which
was essentially: Does anyone really believe that proper project management,
quality control, adherence to deadlines, etc., can be maintained if the
technology project is outsourced to an off-shore firm? I don't think so.

If this list's "small voice in a windstorm" can be heard by management, then
we'll all be better off, no matter where we live.

Has this trend hit anywhere besides the U.S.? If so, how badly have you been
hurt? What do you propose to do about it?


Paul Nelson
Braxton-Reed, Inc.
630-327-8665 Cell
708-923-7354 Home
pnelson@braxton-reed.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mauger, Jenny" <Jenny.Mauger@Zelana.co.uk>
To: "'Paul Nelson'" <pnelson@braxton-reed.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 8:29 AM
Subject: RE: Jobs (or the lack of....)


> Paul,
>
> I'm going to try not to get into this argument because I got drawn into
the
> Sept 11 posts BUT do you think that only Americans have suffered in war?
> What has this to do with buying American?
>
> The benefits of trade are surely obvious to see.
>
> I know that as globalisation develops it is going to be hard for a lot of
us
> but trying to stop it is going to be about as helpful or useful as a
> chocolate tea cup.
>
> If you ONLY buy American you're probably buying form a company who has a
> head office in America, factories all over the world and are the very ones
> using off shore programmers already.  Like it or not you are already part
of
> the world economy.  The only way to do well is to provide what the market
> wants better than anyone else.
>
> Jenny M
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Nelson [mailto:p_nelson-br@pop.inil.com]
> Sent: 08 October 2002 15:50
> To: midrange-jobs@midrange.com
> Subject: Re: Jobs (or the lack of....)
>
>
> > Finally, outsourcing turns labor into a capitalized cost instead of
> > a long-term commitment involving labor disputes, last productivity due
to
> > illness, insurance, retirement issues, and so forth.
> >
> So why don't the outsourcing deals go to American owned consulting firms
> like Steve's? In my world view, it's because many CFO's and CIO's were
> trained in a school of thought that there are no side effects to
> participating in the "global economy".
>
> I don't know about you guys, but I DO look at the source of the products,
> and try to funnel as much money toward American business. I travel a lot,
> and you should see the looks on the faces of the car rental clerks when I
> insist on GM or Ford products. The argument that Toyotas or Hondas are
just
> as good if not better than American cars stops abruptly with two words:
> "Pearl Harbor".
>
> Maybe I am the way I am because I was raised in a family where one uncle
> (Airborne) parachuted into France the night of June 5, 1944. Another uncle
> (Marines) barely survived the Bataan death march, and another was at
> Honolulu's Mitchell Field in the Army Air Corps on December 7, 1941. My
> father (too nearsighted for air combat) spent the war training B-17
> maintenance crews. My former father in law and his brother were both on
> ships in Pearl Harbor the same day. These men passed on to me the belief
> that one should forgive freely but remember forever.
>
> Make a stand. Buy American.
>
> Paul Nelson
> 630-327-8665 Cell
> 708-923-7354 Home
> pnelson@braxton-reed.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Shahan, Ray" <rshahan@SchoolSpecialty.com>
> To: <midrange-l@midrange.com>; <midrange-jobs@midrange.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 9:15 AM
> Subject: RE: Jobs (or the lack of....)
>
>
> > Mr. Nelson states :
> > "We need to turn around the argument that the offshore can do the
> > work for less money to one
> > where the work is done with higher quality in less time. "
> >
> >
> > The answer to that statement is very simple, and it has everything
> > to do with cost.  When we go to Wal-Mart to buy a shirt, it's made
> somewhere
> > other than the U.S.A., but we don't care because it's inexpensive.  The
> > shirt's quality, while usually less than desirable, is acceptable
because
> of
> > the price of the shirt.  Translated into software,  just look at
> > Windows...we can't stand the fact that we have to reboot 2 times a week,
> but
> > the $110.00 price tag for the OS offsets our frustration.
> >
> > Hence, a U.S. company has a strong financial incentive to use
> > offshore labor because while the quality may be lacking (and this is
> > debatable as time goes by), the price for that labor is so damn cheap,
> they
> > don't care.
> >
> > Finally, outsourcing turns labor into a capitalized cost instead of
> > a long-term commitment involving labor disputes, last productivity due
to
> > illness, insurance, retirement issues, and so forth.
> >
> > So, what's the solution?  I don't know, but I do know that preaching
> > quality ain't gonn'a save our jobs, so let's explore other avenues too.
> >
> >
> > Just my .02 worth.  :-)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Ray Shahan
> >
> > "Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans", John Lennon
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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