Re: Off topic - Planes crash into world trade centers

[MacWheel99@xxxxxxx]

I'm repeating a summary in case you seeing these posts out of sequence, or
like me feel a bit overwhelmed with Sep 11, 2001 events.

The USA has been attacked
Four separate US Airline Planes hijacked & crashed into Two important
buildings.
The Pentagon in Washington DC & The World Trade Center in Lower Manhattan of
New York City.
2 from American Airlines & 2 from United
Beacons on the aircraft were turned off to complicate precise identification
They took off from airports in Boston, DC, and Newark New Jersey
Causalities will be greater than any other Terrorist attack in US History

All other commercial aircraft have been accounted for.
Reports of this or that are often attributed to the same aircraft.
The one that hit the Pentagon - it circled DC & earlier was thought that it
might be on a collision course with the White House.
There is a great deal of uncertainty what was the goal of the one that
crashed in Pennsylvania.  With all occupants dead, we can hope the black
boxes are found & have not been sabotaged.

The World Trade Center was a complex of 7 buildings in the heart of the US
Financial district.  3 of the 7 buildings are now gone & the end is not in
sight.

The twin towers were each hit by separate hijacked planes & both towers
collapsed.
Building 7 is now lying on its side.
Building 5 feared to follow.

Debris rained down on adjacent buildings & at least one other building
collapsed.

200,000 people ordinarily pass through this area on a daily basis.

Time has a Timeline of the major events on AOL news
aol://4344:2573.timeline.7669808.684696793

FBI is being quoted as saying a van headed for the George Washington Bridge
may have explosives ... I have yet to see the whole story on this

> The Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP)
> has reportedly claimed responsibility for the attacks on the
> World Trade Center,
according to a report from Stratfor Global Intelligence Company.
http://www.stratfor.com
but later the DFLP denied this.
Bin Ladin seems to be the primary suspect for an abundance of reasons.
But we do not know for sure who is responsible.

I have been taking occasional Tuesdays off work.
As a knowledge worker, I have doubts that I will be able to properly focus on
my work tomorrow & I wonder how many other people similarly distracted.
I still feel stunned.
I need to steel myself to turn off the TV set & leave it off.

There are a number of reports & lines of speculation that I am not repeating
/ sharing / commenting on
Stuff that is like off the wall, unconfirmed, different people react
differently to disaster,
that I do not identify as being representative of this great nation.

The report of a car bomb at State Dept. & other ground assaults now seem to
be false.  Civilians hear sonic booms of US Air Force & think they heard an
explosion.

Explosions at World Trade Center after the 2 planes hit are now considered
probably to be related to two fuel laden large aircraft setting off chain
reaction of damage.

Additional trouble makers are coming out of the woodwork to exploit this
situation.
There has been a sharp rise in bomb threats against buildings around the
world.

At the time of the car bombing of the WTC, we were told that the structure of
the building was not very vulnerable from that point, but that it was
vulnerable from the top.  Did the whole world need to be told that?  In this
society, people want their news media to tell us everything, but perhaps we
need to rethink how to have a wide open society that is safe in today's world
threats.

A journalist from National Public Radio was in other side of Pentagon when it
was hit & says first he knew of problem was when they evacuated the building,
saying that it is 2 miles around, a huge fortress.

> For information on how you can help, visit
http://helping.org/promos/cs_wtc.adp
> http://www.fema.gov/library/lib08.htm
>  http://www.fema.gov/library/public.htm
>  http://www.redcross.org

Money suggested to Red Cross, Salvation Army, Catholic Relief. other
religious organizations, National Organization for Victim Assistance,
Volunteers of America
Monetary contributions allow the professional relief organizations to
purchase what is needed most urgently.
Donate through relief organizations only what is on lists of what they need
for a particular disaster, so that the disaster area is not flooded with
truckloads of items & no place to unload them.  Donated items need to be well
packed & labeled.

Contact your local Red Cross or hospital to donate blood.
Many Cities have blood donation drives
These events will deplete the nation's supply
It needs to be replenished
Secretary of Human Services of USA says many calls from people asking what
they can do to help & donating blood is what he suggests.

Red Cross is the organization most media is suggesting that get donations
1-800-HELP-NOW to donate cash via credit card

American Red Cross PO Box 37243 Washington DC 20013

Priority should be to do whatever is necessary to help with the rescue,
especially in New York City.
Secondary is how to prevent this in the future & recriminations about ability
to see it coming.

We need to rethink the whole concept of how to do security in an open society.

We do not know for sure who is responsible.
Bin Laden is the prime suspect.
believed responsible for past terrorist atrocities
sheltered from justice by Afghanistan government

Anti-terrorism
is it law enforcement?
is it war?
is it like normal plane crash where NLRB & FBI team effort
i.e. it has to be a team effort by different types of skills

In the past, there has not been the political will to go after governments
that sponsor training camps & climates for terrorism

When an airliner is hijacked & appears to be headed towards a major city,
should it be shot down before it can hit a large building
or is there technology which can cause it to be diverted from hitting a
building short of shooting down the hijacked plane?
and is this sort of information should be kept confidential so the terrorists
not figure out how to circumvent it?

Associated Press story on AOL News
aol://4344:3167.worldtr.21068119.684679887
quotes Utah Senator Orrin Hatch, top Republican on Senate Judiciary
Committee, as saying US Intelligence intercepted communications between Bin
Laden supporters discussing the attacks on the World Trade Center and
Pentagon.

It is not clear to me if these intercepts were before / after / during the
events & what if anything could be learned from them about Bin Laden
involvement.

> According to the BBC, a London Arab newspaper (Al-Quds)
> reported three WEEKS ago that Bin Laden had warned a major attack
> on the US coming up.  No more specifics were given.

This was discussed in several discussions with people who I consider to be
authoritative & it is clear to me that the Bin Laden warning was circulating
the Middle East but that it was a very general vague warning, while US
embassies are getting daily threats.  The noise level is incredible regarding
which threats to take seriously, and what their significance is.

It is like the low level stuff on the Internet ... no one is killed, no
destruction of physical property, but we have non-stop bombardment by hacker
robots, hacker worms, computer viruses, unsolicited advertisements for all
sorts of illegal enterprises & the nation seems powerless to locate the
perpetrators & bring them to justice.

Noise level of threats & quality of analysis tools to see which to take most
serious - can computer community be doing more to help resolve that?

But the intelligence community needs more human resources, and cooperation
with other nations that have other contacts.  Electronic intelligence only
goes so far.

And you know, the intelligence community has not enjoyed a lot of popular
political support.  When they are successful, no one knows it.  Today was the
first I heard of them foiling a plot by Bin Laden to hijack 12 jumbo jets out
West for an assault that would have been much larger than what was
perpetrated today.

We don't know who the enemy is
extremely frustrating

Suppose we are 90% sure it is ______ - does that justify attack
What if we are 95% sure?

US Government is functioning
Many leaders at undisclosed locations
except in brief press briefings

A few days ago I was watching on C-Span, hearings into the needs of US
Defense.
President Bush asked for 18 Billion increase in spending before this day of
evil
the increase was approved by the Defense Committee but Congress not yet know
where the money to come from in the overall budget

Hotel space is at a premium where air travelers stranded
Their needs seem trivial compared to that of people in Lower Manhattan
Likewise I was amazed to see talking heads speculating what stock market
stocks would go up or down because of this

Terrorist Organizations all saying it was not them, but some adding words of
joy that it was done.
Sporadic incidents of street celebrations by Palestinian people praising this
attack on the USA

Worldwide leaders condemning this terrorist attack & expressing solidarity
with USA
Several nations around the world are on alert.

Israel declared national day of mourning for the USA for tomorrow,
the only nation that can assure peace & stability & democracy in the world,
this is not just an attack on the USA but an attack on Civilization,
said Peres, former Israel foreign minister

Similar sentiments heard from nations around the world
Britain, Chile, Germany, India

London Stock market crumbled in horror, then trading was halted there also
There was a building bomb scare in Germany but turned out to be a hoax
Malaysian police reported a bomb threat against Petronas Tower

As Asian stock markets began to open for next day, they too tumbled in shock
over this world instability

Specialists in Rescue operations in transit from other nations to help the USA

Former NATO Supreme Commander General Wesley Clark interviewed on CNN
mentioned that under NATO treaty, an attack on any one member of NATO is an
attack on all members of NATO

News from BBC support notion of how seriously Europe is taking this.
No Fly Zone over London is being expanded.
Streets around US Embassies in Europe being evacuated
German skyscrapers being evacuated

Air Canada flights suspended
Canadian airports closed

Israel suspended any flights in other than El Al

Government buildings all over USA closed

US nuclear power plants & nuclear fuel sites to highest state of alert
All vessels in US navigable waters being checked
Mall of America (largest shopping center in the world) closed
Greyhound (largest bus service in North America) service suspended

The people who did this knew how to fly planes - they needed special training
- a Cessna Pilot could not do this
They hijacked 4 planes, that had large fuel loads, to maximize the damage
They knew how to get the planes to symbols of American power

I walked through my 60 TV channels - many have suspended normal programming &
are running feeds from various news channels.  Many channels running standard
fare - movies, comedy, usual junk

TLC-41 (the learning channel) showing BBC World News, which has information
not yet on US New Feeds
One of the Home Shopping channels-45 showing News World International

> www.cnn.com is reachable!
Other sites for relevant news might include
http://www.economist.com British world events
http://www.economist.com/countries Pick a country briefing
http://www.stratfor.com/services/giu/subscribe.asp see this sort of thing
coming
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/ The National Security Archive
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/news/news_stories/cole.html US Navy info
on the Cole
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/ what's doing at Supreme Court of the United
States

Chicago Tribune subscribers are getting an extra edition today.

> There's ALOT of systems that were hit/effected by the NY situation.
>
> You folks in NY and other venu's need to let us know what you need to help
> get you back on your feet.

I can see the TV channels losing audio & picture much more than usual & for
them to lose the feed from Pres Bush I thought was unprecedented.

> I can only imagine what a logistics nightmare it must be. In addition to the
>  medical evacuations, rescue crews and equipment, etc.,

TV reports serious shortage of medical supplies for some kinds of treatment.
Hospital personnel going to Retail Pharmacies to get at whatever stocks of
burn treatment supplies immediate area available.

Hysterical people near entrances to St Vincent Hospital, which is the closest
of the 170 NYC hospitals to the WTC, removed by police so as to keep the flow
of triage & patients unimpeded

> Aircraft reports so far:
I have seen conflicting reports as to the flight numbers & which plane was
involved in which incident, numbers of people on board ... there is no doubt
now that 4 large US airliners were hijacked & 4 crashed & that all other
commercial airplanes are accounted for.
WGN News reporting from O'Hare Airport, the nation's busiest airport, seemed
to have more details than national news.

People, aboard the hijacked planes, who managed to make cell phone calls out,
each described similar circumstances, according to Associated Press.  The
hijackers were armed with knives.  I have heard multiple reports of callers
who phoned out - the only detail from the planes was hijeackers & their
weapons ... I did not hear descriptions of the hijackers ... Timothy McVeigh
clones or Arabs or any other.

There was a lot of early speculation which was the 2nd plane to hit WTC &
which was the one to hit the Pentagon ... I am sure the FAA knows which is
which & we will get clarification

> American Airlines flt 11 leaving Boston (Logan) to Los Angeles,
>  Boeing 767, reported crashed into WTC
This was the first of the two planes to hit WTC - North Tower
81 passengers 9 flight attendants, 2 pilots

>  United Airlines flt 175 leaving Boston (Logan) to Los Angeles,   a Boeing
767
56 passengers, 7 flight attendants, 2 pilots
second plane to hit WTC - South Tower

Casualities in Lower Manhattan will probably dwarf those at the other sites.

>  American Airlines ft 77 leaving DC (Dulles) to LA, a Boeing 757
58 passengers, 4 flight attendants, 2 pilots
this one hit the Pentagon
This plane reportedly carried Barbara Olson, wife of the Solicitor General of
the USA Ted Olson.  She reportedly phoned her husband from the plane saying
they were being hijacked.  Twice she managed to phone out.
Reports of 100 killed on the ground

>   United Airlines flt 93 or 99? Boeing 757, Newark NJ to San Francisco
crashed in Pensylvania
a rural area near a major tunnel 80 miles SE of Pittsburgh
38 passengers, 5 flight attendants, 2 pilots
I have seen speculation that it was aimed at Camp David Md,
that it was shot down by US air defenses (which US leadership denies)
that the pilot tried to have it re-routed to Reagan Airport in DC
that it was going to have a stop over in Cleveland
A passenger locked in a rest room used cell phone to call emergency services
to report the hijacking

All flights grounded over USA until at least noon Wed

WTC is a cluster of 7 buildings in the financial heart of America.
the 2 tower buildings are gone, obliterated
Buildings 7 & 8 afire, risk of collapse also

BBC quotes British Foreign Office saying Saloman Brothers Building in NY
collapsed, this is a 47 story building that was very close to the 110 story
World Trade Building.  It seemed like it was several hours later the US media
were also saying this.

The Birts say US airports & airlines are very open.
I'd tend to agree that US airport security is extremely uncoordinated.
Ask me for copy of what I sent the White House Committee on Terrorism at the
time of the Olympic Games bombing ... I'd have to dig up what the name of
that document was & which folder I have it in ... since then I have seen
additional lapses of security & been frustrated who I should report such
stuff to ... It is like Internet crimes - I assume the authorities well aware
of & don't need millions of people flooding them with the same news

www.ifccfbi.gov seeks info that anyone knows that might be useful to the
authorities

I have zero knowledge on this event other than what I have seen on the news
today.
I am an occasional air traveler who has been a bit disgusted with what seems
to pass for "extensive airport security."

Congress getting security briefings
symbolic gesture US government goes on ahead doing the nation's business

State organized or terrorist organization?
Awful easy to jump to conclusions
OK City was domestic

However, very few organizations have this level of
financial resources, personnel training, coordination, their own pilots,
suicide bombing dedication

Meanwhile there's reports of violence at Afghan Capital Kabul
multiple explosions from rocket & missile attacks
conflicting stories
US gov military denies any involvement

MacWheel99@aol.com (Alister Wm Macintyre) (Al Mac)