RE: OpenSource version of WebFacing (was: alternative to WebFacing) -- MIDRANGE-L

Nathan,

See >>

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-midrange-l@midrange.com
[mailto:owner-midrange-l@midrange.com]On Behalf Of Nathan M. Andelin
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 1:38 PM
To: MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com
Subject: RE: OpenSource version of WebFacing (was: alternative to
WebFacing)


jt,

This response may be a bit belated.

>> Not at all!  In this horse race, the horses haven't even been put in the
starting gate yet.  In fact, still looking for enough horses to run a decent
race.

I was working on a new Web Chat Server
at www.relational-data.com.  This small application is another instance of
how a goal, and a detailed plan provide motivation.  It was hard to put
down - until finished.

>> Often true.


There are many steps between forming an idea and implementing a solution for
a project as big as Webfacing.  In my experience, strong leadership is most
critical in the first few phases of the project, then team work is more
critical in the latter.  I'd look for a strong leader to define the
objectives, articulate the benefits, form an organization, and set the
goals.  It may also be necessary for that person to provide detailed
requirements, and overall architecture.  All that must be written.  It takes
a lot of work (and sometimes a miracle) before others will follow.

>> True...  Sounds a lot like what Joe was saying.


I may eventually be able to contribute some code (or something).

>> I hope.  I hope it will be a lot of the "or something" as we're not yet
to the point of coding (in my mind).


But my
approach to Web Applications is so different than Webfacing that I'm at a
loss as to how I might contribute.

>> WHOA THERE...  We're starting with a blank slate here.  Even if different
people have specific plans for how this should progress nobody can say, with
any certainty, how it actually will progress.  Somebody has to help figure
this part out, and it may as well be you as anybody.


Webfacing reminds me of GUI/400.  That
product created quite a stir within Marketing and Management at a former
employer of mine.  It promised an easy transition from 5250 to GUI.  But in
the end, most customers preferred 5250 and most new prospects seemed to be
more interested in a Visual Basic like UI.

My work on the Chat Server mentioned above reinforced some of my opinions
about DDS conversion tools like Webfacing.  That application is one that
cried out for frames.  There really is no DDS equivalent to frames.  I don't
have experience with how Webfacing converts DDS.  But I suspect the initial
HTML is not what you'd want to provide to users.  I suspect there's quite a
bit of work after that to make it passable for demonstration.  For me, good
(not great) HTML layout takes just as much time as writing the RPG
application to serve it.

>> I'm not agreeing or disagreeing.  (I tend to agree, but would need to
study things more.)


One may use Webfacing to generate a lot of code.  But after the code is
written, it still has to be read, understood, and maintained.  In some
cases, developers may actually spend less time to write the code themselves.
Especially if they've got a few templates to follow.

>> I may have lead you astray when I was talking about code-generators.  The
last thing I'd want to do (from having done too much of it) is to require
generated code to be hand-tooled.  I read that up to 5% of Jacada's
converted code may need to be changed/fixed.  And then it all needs tested.
That's a show-stopper to me.

>> But just as Joe pointed out to me how I was putting the cart before the
horse, let me say the same to you (IMHO).  Before we start talking specific
details of a particular implementation (and before laying out a detailed
plan for organizing) why don't we just jump in a pile and kick the tires a
little.

>> I'm throwing together a web site that includes a discussion group.  It's
uses a free utility, actually a content management system.  Nobody has to
use it, but I'm going to put it together anyway.  Hopefully it will provide
a start until something better comes along.

>> I invite you to join me, and maybe Joe or others, in kicking the tires.
Maybe next week (?) we can start hashing out some specifics.


Even if your reply had been belated (which it wasn't) I'd tell you I sure
appreciate it.

jt

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