RE: OpenSource version of WebFacing (was: alternative to WebFacing) -- MIDRANGE-L



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-midrange-l@midrange.com
[mailto:owner-midrange-l@midrange.com]On Behalf Of Joe Pluta
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 10:25 PM
To: MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com
Subject: RE: OpenSource version of WebFacing (was: alternative to
WebFacing)


If anyone wants to be told "This can be done, and here's how you're going to
do it" they're going to have to hear it from someone other than me.  The
proof is in the pudding.  But, by the same token, I'm not going to say it
can't be done, until the best effort has been made and it comes up short.
---------

Let's cut to the chase here.  I spend a lot of time going through your
posts, jt, because they make some coherent sense.  My biggest frustration,
though, is that I see a lot of heat and light, but no actual commitment.
Paragraphs like the above, where you reference "the best effort" while at
the same time distancing yourself from active participation "someone other
than me" are somewhat paradoxical in nature.  Wat exactly are you prepared
to do to get this effort off the ground?

>> I'm trying to put together an IMHO column that outlines an organization
structure for this OSS effort.  I hope that will give the iSeries community
the best chance possible to start OSS development.  Because I believe the
best intentions won't produce a whole lot, unless the efforts are organized.

>> I guess the reason my post seems paradoxical in nature is because it is.
I'm prepared to work on this project, maybe not as long as anybody, but as
hard as anybody.  That's my committment, and that's why I intend to write
the IMHO.  And I'll commit hours if/when the thing gets off the ground.  But
right now there's nobody to work with, nothing to work on, no computer
resources to use.  No organization to commit to...  I'm making a committment
before there's anything to commit to.  AFAIK, I'm the only one who has
committed to this.  That's somewhat of a paradox to be in.

>> I'm not so much distancing myself from active participation as realizing
this may never get off the ground.

>> But I am definitely distancing myself from getting into a position where
I suggest what people should do.  I said many of these same ideas, in a post
to IGNITe, about how to organize a discussion group that could focus on the
iNation.  I got a comment, off-list, that said I came across like I was
saying "I want this to happen, so you guys do it and do it now!"  This
person added "You may not have meant it that way, but that's how it came
across."

>> This person was absolutely correct, and I'm trying to avoid that now.
The fact that I got banned from the IGNITe lists because of that post isn't
even important, compared to the fact that this is how I came across, at
least to some people.


I've already tried to do something with Java400.net, although it is at best
a spare time effort.  David Gibbs runs the mailing lists, including this
one.  Other people have made contributions to the community, from Easy400 to
Brad's tools to Bill Reger's adamantly freeware WRKDBF.  Some people will
contribute, some won't.  But until we as a group actually try to get
something started, this is a pointless exercise.

>> True.


So, lest this conversation
devolve further into a pipe dream, the time has come, I think, to make a bit
of a stand... SOGOTP, so to speak (and I shant expand the acronym, except to
say that the last five words are "...or get off the pot" <smile>).

>> Thanks to the hint, I think I gotcha. <g>


Discussions are wonderful.  But without action, words are just words.  In
fact, in your own words, "the proof is in the pudding," yet I don't even see
the gas being turned on the burner.

>> Hmmm.  Seems like you're lighting a fire under my tail.  <vbg>



That being the case, since you've started all of this, I ask that you make
some suggestions as to what should be done.  Pick a project.  Pick a goal.
Put up a website dedicated to the proposition.  Solicit comments.  Poll the
masses.  Identify some objectives.  Identify some players.  Develop some
teams.  Draft some plans.  Conceive a prototype.  Write some code.  Show
some results.

These are all ACTION words.  Enough talk.

------------------------------

Joe,

I think I hear what your saying.

My committment to this is what you're reading right now.  As I said, I'm
trying to write up an organizational structure that will allow folks to do
OSS development.  I've asked two people to help me on this, but haven't
heard anything back, yet.  In the meantime, I'm floating ideas.  That's
all... Because it's still early.  These are my actions.  They might not seem
like much, yet, because it _is_ all talk.  I'm talking about how this thing
should be organized.

And as I've said before, I'll work on this project, but my heart isn't in it
to lead the project.

Why?  If I'm the one trying to put together the organizational structure, it
would be best for me to take my name out of the hat as far as leading the
thing.  Not just to remove any notion that I'm trying to set this thing up
to my advantage.  But because I'm not above thinking along those lines
myself, and I don't want anything clouding my thoughts about what type of
organization would give the OSS community the best chance to get off the
ground.  That's a personal choice I've made.


But as far as action, I think progress is being made right before your eyes,
on a lot of the items you mentioned:

The project:    Develop interface (other than WebFacing) to replace 5250.
The goal:               See fundamental principles in last post.
Website:        This list and the Midrange IMHO area.
Solicit comments: Done.
Poll the masses:  To do.


The next step seems to be, like you said "Identify some players".  I can't
identify the players.  I'm not going to call on you or anyone else to lead
this project.  Maybe that's what you want me to do, and maybe I should, but
I can't do that.  I addressed the last post to you, Nathan, and Brad because
you three are the strongest proponents of different ways of attacking the
problem.  So your names just rose to the top.

But I felt I was going out on a limb to do even that, because it isn't for
me to suggest to any of youse, that you should take on anything.  That any
of you should work with any other two people to get this thing started.
That'd be premature anyway, because there hasn't even been any consensus
that three leaders is the way to go.



When the time comes, I'll commit hours to the project.  But I'm not going to
suggest to anybody else that they should, or how many.  That's an example of
what I meant by "they're going to have to hear it from someone other than
me".  My hope is that they wouldn't _need_ to hear it from me, or anyone
else either.  Each has to decide their own level of commitment.

After the players are identified, the project analysis can be started on.


To make a long story short, we're at the chicken-and-egg point in time, so I
think some of the things I say seem like a paradox, because there's a lot of
paradox involved in bootstrapping an organization.  What comes first?


BTW, this progress has come from this list, not from me personally, and
that's the only way OSS development will get going.  News/400 wrote me
asking if they could credit me with this idea and I said:  no, give the
credit to Leslie Russell where it belongs.  You haven't seen Leslie's name
on any of these recent posts, but he's contributed an awful lot.  I just
took the ball from him, for a while, and ran with it.  I'm going to do my
best to put together this IMHO to lay out a good way to organize things.
After that, I'm going to hand the ball off to somebody, or some group that
identifies themselves as the initial leaders of this project.  Because I
hope this thing gets off the ground, and that the players will identify
themselves.


I don't know how well that clarifies what I'm doing.  It's late...  And I'm
still trying to figure these things out myself...

Anyhoo...  Thanks, Joe, for your interest.

jt

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