Re: How can Java eat up 160meg of memory? -- MIDRANGE-L

Excerpts from midrange-l: 29-Feb'00 RE: How can Java eat up 160..
"Stone, Brad V @taylorco (2426*) 

> > Several points:  First, the vendor probably figures that anyone using 
> > Java knows better than to use the M$ JVM.  This may be  
> > elitist on their 
> > part, but is common knowledge in Java circles.  

> This is pure crap from the consumer endpoint and another bad argument from 
> the java defenders. 

Bad Arguments is my middle name.  *8-)  
         
> If the vendor thinks the consumer knows what a JVM is, 
> then they're a pretty sorry vendor and should be writing utilities for java 
> programmers, not tools for consumers that shouldn't have to  give a squirt 
> what language the app is written in. 

I'm not arguing that their position is valid or defensible, just
understandable. 

I agree that if this so-called Java application is intended for 24x7 use
by an average consumer, and wasn't either a) tested under real-world
conditions for memory leaks under the several most-commonly-used JVMs,
or b) provided along with explicit directions on how to download and
install a decent JVM under which it *was* tested; then it is just as you
say (I'm going to use a slightly less colorful word) "junk."   

Absolute junk.  Unqualified, unadulterated, indefensible junk.  Great
heaping piles of steaming junk. 

Is this Java's fault?   (Is the *truly* rotten FORTRAN compiler I wrote
in Turbo Pascal for my undergrad compilers class a bad reflection on
Turbo Pascal?  ...or on the PC/XT it ran on? ...or on the Intel 8088
inside?)  Bad code can be written in any language, even RPG.  <gulp> 

>   Finally, the vendor probably advertises that 
> > their application is Java so folks know they are not tied to WinXX -- 
> > folks know the app will run on their operating system of choice 
> > (including OS/400).  

> That's a laugh in a half and another one third!  The product is "made for 
> NT" and "written in java."  Means 2 things.   
> 1.  It will only run on Windows.   

Oh?  Well, then, this so-called "application" is NOT 100% pure Java!  If
it was, it would run on the AS/400 and a large number of other boxes,
period.  So, we've most likely found the probable corruption, memory
leak, and true source of the River "Junk!"  ;-) 

Seriously, if this so-called "Java application" is leaking memory, and
it isn't 100% pure Java, the first place THEY should look is in their
native code.  The first place YOU should look is for a new software
vendor! 

> 2.  We wrote it in Java because it gets IT managers, purchasing folks, and 
> everyone else who doesn't know what it is all "hot under the collar" because 
> its "new technology." 

No, "New Technology" == "NT".  ;-)  Talk about hype!  At least the
revolution of Java has some real merit, instead of a prime advertising
opportunity called the BSOD. 

> Saying your app is written in Java is like an IPO for a tech stock.  It 
> doesn't mean much when the chips are cashed in. 

Absolutely agreed. 

> > There are abundant examples of Java meeting real world business needs, 
> > and if you want to program to use the 'net then Java is  
> > quickly becoming 
> > the lingua franca.  
> > 

> So I keep hearing.  But the two client-server apps I've used (not these 
> little applets or "helloworld examples") are slow.  And one for sure is 
> unreliable.  And the applets on the web just make my web browser slow down 
> or crash. 

How long ago was that?  I mean, "client-server" never really lived up to
its promise, did it?  It's actually quite dated, having been replaced by
more elegant schemes.   

Now, sure -- if C/S was unrealized hype, then these might be, too. 
However, the early signs are promising...  ;-) 

So, anyway, you've used all of *two* client-server apps that you *know*
were written in Java.  Both were slow.  One was unreliable.   And, it is
from this  universe of two instances that you make the logical inference
that the other N must all be bad, as well.  If this is your take, I'm
tilting at windmills. 

> Java is so new that no one is an expert with it, and I understand that.   

Wrong.  There certainly *are* true Java experts (I wish I were one). 
Part of the problem might be that not many of them frequent this mailing
list.  *8-) 

> No one wins with hype that can't be backed up. 

Agreed.  Thankfully, the web is crawling with Java success stories. 
It's seriously too bad that your first exposures to Java apps have been
so uniformly disheartening.  I think that you could grow to see the
value of Java, particularly if it would let you put your data where it
belongs -- on an AS/400!  :-) 

Thanks! 

-blair 

  ___   _           Blair Wyman                  IBM Rochester 
 ( /_)  /  _  ' _   (507)253-2891            blairw@us.ibm.com 
__/__)_/_<_/_/_/_'  Opinions expressed may not be those of IBM 

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