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Chris, I'm sorry if I struck a nerve: I really didn't mean to rile you up. All I was trying to do was to point out that not all managers see things our way. I backed that statement up with actual remarks actually made to me by actual managers. I'm not hiding behind the label of "the boss." What good does it do me to look like an idiot in front of an entire listserv? Of course I want to use an advanced editor (Lpex, Flex/Edit, even Brief: anything is better than plain old SEU!) On the other hand, it seems that you're rather missing the point: Don't think like a programmer, think like a manager! Clearly, management is NOT going to give you anything and everything you want simply because you ask for it. You need to justify your need---agreed? If I recall, you're in Vegas. There's lots of money there, and perhaps your management is somewhat less concerned about absolutely minimising expenses. Here in the Rust Belt, things are tighter. We don't get to spend money without serious management debate. When I present the case for Code/400, this debate has several facets: 1. The fact of the up-front expense that must be booked now. 2. My opinion, strongly in favour. 3. Possible, unmeasurable productivity gains in the future. 4. Other shop's opinions, for or against. (References) Of these factors, only #1 is quantifiable. The rest are all subjective. In the course of my heretofore hopeless research, I have been shot down point by point from the sales brochure, to wit: "We already do all that stuff for free." So much for my opinion. As to the potential productivity gains, there may well be ammunition as yet undiscovered to use on that front. Things like "before and after" numbers and specific things that the Code/400 product does that are far superior to SEU/PDM/ISDB. Finally, rather than take *my* word alone, my management (like any competent management) would like to see if what I say holds true for other AS/400 shops: preferably shops similar to ours. IBM might have a list of shops similar to ours who use Code/400. That's why references from other shops are important. If nobody else uses Code/400, that simply doesn't bolster my case that it's a great product that saves us time and effort. Buck Calabro +--- | This is the Midrange System Mailing List! | To submit a new message, send your mail to "MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com". | To unsubscribe from this list send email to MIDRANGE-L-UNSUB@midrange.com. | Questions should be directed to the list owner/operator: david@midrange.com +---
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