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That is my catch 22 I get a project it takes me a few weeks to get the
cobwebs out then I start rolling along but some places don't want to
understand or hear it. The perpetuators of the situation.
Alex Montalvo
AS/400 Consultant
1(917)442-5450 Cell
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <jmurfitt@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: Alex Montalvo <alexmrpg@xxxxxxx>
CC: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx, mary_watkins_developer@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 153
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 13:13:02 -0500
>I know how you feel Mary. I was displaced as they call it in 2001 and
have been fighting to get back into a programming position. I have
done
what I could to try and stay current. of course now companies don't
want
to interview me becuase they feel I am not current, but if I try to
apply as a Jr Programmer I am told I have too much experience, go
figure. For the past year I have been on a contract as a computer
operator. it's boring and a non learning situation. I've thought about
learning new languages but am hesitant with the present market. I'm
beginning to believe I should just get out of IT, but hate to do so
because I have so much time invested. Good luck Mary hope something
comes up for you.
>
>
>---- Alex Montalvo <alexmrpg@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> > *** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this
list!
> > *** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL
> > *** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions
in
this list.
> >
> >
> > I am sorry to hear that Mary. I was on Public assistance after
UI
bennies
> > ran out 3 times over the past seven years how I stayed sane? I
got good
> > and P.O'ed and told my story on this very site in 2001. And
like
then I
> > had more heckelers than peers at first then I started getting
responses
> > from all over the country Steve Landess one the first from
Texas.
I
> > realized I was on to something I emailed and called everynews
agency I
> > could got ignored mostly a few years later news shows started
discussing
> > the very issues I had been yelling about. I'd like to think I
and
other
> > Disappointed Americans may have had something to do with it. I
contact the
> > Senate and Congress so much I think they curse me out under
their
> > breath every time they get a call fax or email from me.
> >
> > I wish you Good Luck and best wishes in your future endevors
and
lets kick
> > some political ass shall we?
> >
> > Alex Montalvo
> > AS/400 Consultant
> > 1(917)442-5450 Cell
> >
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > From: Mary Watkins <mary_watkins_developer@xxxxxxxxx>
> > To: Subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol
5,
Issue 153
> > Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 08:47:41 -0800 (PST)
> > >*** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on
this list!
> > >*** If you want the reply to go to the list, use
REPLY-TO-ALL
> > >*** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment
positions in
> > this list.
> > >
> > >
> > >Well, as you all have heard from me within the last year, I
can assure
> > you I am still an unemployed programmer and see no real
opportunities in
> > the future. However, I still respond to listings and
opportunities. I
> > do have an interview on Monday, so . . you never know. It
is
not
> > programming, but I am may get my foot in the door somewhere
and
work
> > back to an open position.
> > > It is unfortunate that the offshore companies have taken
so
many
> > "jobs" of all sorts from Americans. It positions are not the
only form
> > of offshore shift. Ever try to resolve a situation with
Sony,
Samsung,
> > AT&T.
> > >The call centers are swamped with people of foreign accent
trying to
> > speak to Americans. When they have no idea how to spell Mary
or
Watkins,
> > I usually hang up.
> > >
> > > If I had the answer to the situation I would not be
unemployed to
> > date.
> > > This could be debated for the next few years. . .not sure
how to
> > bring the jobs back here. . .One thing for sure do not give
up
the
> > salaries that are deserved. Bank tellers do not have to have
4
years of
> > education to gain employment whereas an IT professional does.
> > >
> > > As some suggested on the message board, it is time to be
more
> > aggressive and initiate alternative measures to insure that
one
lands a
> > position here. It is of most importance to fight for our
opportunities.
> > > Personally, I think it is time for Americans to let big
businesses
> > know how we feel about the current policy of shipping job
opportunites
> > to foreign countries. What happened to the land of the
free? We are
> > free to do what here? Lately, my fmaily has been going
hungry
and
> > facing eviction about every 6 months.
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > > Mary Watkins
> > > 309-245-2682
> > >midrange-jobs-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > > Send MIDRANGE-JOBS mailing list submissions to
> > >midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > >http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-jobs
> > >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > >midrange-jobs-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > >You can reach the person managing the list at
> > >midrange-jobs-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
specific
> > >than "Re: Contents of MIDRANGE-JOBS digest..."
> > >
> > >
> > >*** NOTE: When replying to this digest message, PLEASE
remove
all text
> > unrelated to your reply and change the subject line so it is
meaningful.
> > >
> > >Today's Topics:
> > >
> > >1. Re: Fw: H-1B/offshoring debate at UCLA (Alex Montalvo)
> > >2. Re: Fw: H-1B/offshoring debate at UCLA (Michael Ryan)
> > >
> > >
>
> >----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >message: 1
> > >date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 11:55:11 -0500
> > >from: "Alex Montalvo"
> > >subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] Fw: H-1B/offshoring debate at
UCLA
> > >
> > >For those who haven't been subject to constant short
contracts
and
> > early
> > >releases every time the market hiccups it's easy to judge
someone else.
> > >
> > >Face bankrupcy while answering ad's from companies
sponsoring
h1b's
> > >blatently, lawyers all to happy advocate the same and none
defending
> > your
> > >cause and see if you come away unjaded pal!
> > >
> > >Alex Montalvo
> > >AS/400 Consultant
> > >1(917)442-5450 Cell
> > >
>
> >----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >From: "Michael Ryan"
> > >To: "Alex Montalvo"
> > >CC: sjl_abc@xxxxxxxxxxx, cpf0000@xxxxxxxxxxxx,
> > >midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >Subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] Fw: H-1B/offshoring debate at
UCLA
> > >Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 11:10:51 -0500
> > > >Wow...quite the venomous diatribe. You made your point
succinctly.
> > I'm
> > > >sure that anyone who reads this can understand you, your
employment
> > > >issue and your belief system.
> > > >
> > > >On Nov 8, 2007 11:03 AM, Alex Montalvo wrote:
> > > > > *** Please pay close attention when replying to a
message
on this
> > >list!
> > > > > *** If you want the reply to go to the list, use
REPLY-TO-ALL
> > > > > *** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment
positions
> > in
> > >this list.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I am a such a forty something coder who has been given
my
walking
> > >papers
> > > > > again from a Jewish owned textile company after 2
months
three
> > >H1b
> > > > > consultants from India have been here for 7 + months
are
staying!
> > >The
> > > > > consulting company from India hired me for this all
just
so the
> > > > > permanently employed staff can take thier vacations and
now that
> > >they are
> > > > > done so was I. Had to wait 30 days for my first pay
check
from
> > >India to
> > > > > get here and wait another five day's for it to clear
all
that and
> > >still
> > > > > get left out. This is the fourth time I have been
subject
to
> > >this. I am
> > > > > so sick of this senario. who the hell do I have to sue
to
get
> > >this ____ to
> > > > > stop?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > There is a underlying agenda it has been the case since
the
> > >Reagan era and
> > > > > the undermining of labor unions, The corporate and
political
> > >powers that
> > > > > be are turning a free market society into a kingdom
without a
> > >king! Well
> > > > > there is one, consisting of many crowns(companies) and
many
> > >horns(Crooked
> > > > > politicians and lawmakers & authorities) and many
> > >eyes(surveillance)
> > > > > Hmmmm! where have I heard that before? No I am not a
religious
> > >fanatic but
> > > > > the simularites were just too obvieous to ignore.
> > > > >
> > > > > Alex Montalvo
> > > > > AS/400 Consultant
> > > > > 1(917)442-5450 Cell
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > From: "SJL"
> > > > > To: ,
> > > > > Subject: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] Fw: H-1B/offshoring debate at
UCLA
> > > > > Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 08:08:32 -0600
> > > > > >*** Please pay close attention when replying to a
message on
> > >this list!
> > > > > >*** If you want the reply to go to the list, use
REPLY-TO-ALL
> > > > > >*** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment
> > >positions in
> > > > > this list.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >All -
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Dr. Norman Matloff is a professor of computer science
at
> > >UC-Davis,
> > > > > >and is one of the leaders in the fight to keep
technical
jobs
> > >in this
> > > > > >country - and employ _Americans_ in those jobs...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >His opinion (based on much analysis of salary trends
in
our
> > > > > >business over the last 7 years) is that companies use
H-1B
> > >workers
> > > > > >primarily for cheap labor.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >In this debate, Ravi Aron confirms this fact. During
the
> > >debate,
> > > > > >globalist Ravi says (see full text in story below):
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Aron: If you're willing to pay enough, supply will
meet
> > >demand.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Let me add:
> > > > > >You should not pay that much.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >The idea that there exists an exalted class of
> > > > > >[computer] aristocracy that should be pampered with
the
> > >salaries
> > > > > >of their desired level is baloney. We did not do this
with
> > > > > >agricultural or steel workers or bank tellers.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >- Steve
> > > > > >
> > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >From: "Norm Matloff"
> > > > > >To: "Norm Matloff"
> > > > > >Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 12:42 AM
> > > > > >Subject: H-1B/offshoring debate at UCLA
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >To: H-1B/L-1/offshoring e-newsletter
> > > > > >
> > > > > >On October 23, IS Associates, an industry affiliates
program
> > >in the
> > > > > >UCLA Anderson School of Management, held a panel
discussion on
> > >the
> > > > > >future of U.S. IT professionals, given the rise of
H-1B
and
> > >offshoring.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >This is one of the few panel discussions I've ever
> > >participated in that
> > > > > >gave everyone a chance to speak in full. Instead of
the
usual
> > >one
> > > > > hour,
> > > > > >we actually had three hours (including a break and a
Q&A
> > >period) in
> > > > > >which to thoroughly debate the issues. That sounds
like
> > >hardship for
> > > > > >both speakers and audience alike, but but the debate
was
quite
> > >lively
> > > > > >and the audience seemed quite engaged.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Enclosed below is a blog report on the event by Don
Tennant,
> > >who is
> > > > > >editor of Computerworld and served as the moderator of
the
> > >event. He
> > > > > >posed some excellent questions, and included a couple
of
small
> > >excerpts
> > > > > >of the ensuing discussion in his blog.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Though Don is correct in stating that much of the
debate
> > >consisted of
> > > > > >exchanges between Prof. Ravi Aron and me, it's
important
to
> > >point out
> > > > > >that there were two other panelists, Jesus Arriaga,
Interim
> > >CIO of
> > > > > >Bosley Medical, Inc. and Mitch Stern, Director Human
Capital,
> > >Deloitte
> > > > > >Consulting. Mr. Stern, an HR expert, did have quite a
bit to
> > >say, and
> > > > > >Mr. Arriaga made some interesting comments as well.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >As you will see in his remarks below, Prof. Aron takes
the
> > >libertarian
> > > > > >point of view. He admits that the H-1B program is used
for
> > >cheap labor
> > > > > >rather than for remedying a labor shortage, and over
lunch
> > >before the
> > > > > >event he also admitted that the H-1Bs are mainly
brought
in so
> > >that
> > > > > >employers can avoid hiring older, i.e. 40+, Americans;
indeed,
> > >he
> > > > > >brought this up before I did. (He also mentioned that
to
prep
> > >for the
> > > > > >debate, he talked to his former colleague at Wharton,
Peter
> > >Cappelli,
> > > > > >whose writings on the non-shortage of labor I've often
> > >quoted.) He put
> > > > > >forth the usual argument, spoken with religious fervor
and
> > >mathematical
> > > > > >certainty, that purely laissez faire economic policies
make
> > >the world
> > > > > >better.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >For my part, I stated that I respect the libertarians
because
> > >at least
> > > > > >they are honest about issues like this. However, I
also
> > >stated that I
> > > > > >believe most people (including those in the audience)
aren't
> > > > > >libertarians. My willingness to participate in forums
such as
> > >this is
> > > > > >motivated mainly by a desire to get the facts out in
the
open;
> > >then
> > > > > each
> > > > > >listener can apply his own political/economic
philosophy
to
> > >forming his
> > > > > >stance on the issues.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >The nature of the audience, consisting of CIOs, IT
managers,
> > >IT
> > > > > >entrepreneurs and the like, made for quite a different
type of
> > > > > >discussion than one usually finds in these forums.
They
KNOW
> > >these
> > > > > >issues. This is the first such forum I've seen in
which
NO
> > >ONE (if I
> > > > > >remember correctly) challenged my point that H-1B is
about
> > >cheap labor
> > > > > >and replacement of older workers. Even Stern and
Arriaga,
> > >both of whom
> > > > > >strongly asserted a tech labor shortage, did not
dispute
these
> > >points,
> > > > > >and as mentioned, Aron did not dispute them either.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >One thing that got a big laugh and repeated references
in the
> > > > > subsequent
> > > > > >discussion was that I said, "Paraphrasing Shakepeare,
I
say
> > >`First
> > > > > thing
> > > > > >we do is kill all the HR people.'" :-) After the
event,
> > >several people
> > > > > >told me some of their own favorite horror HR stories.
HR
> > >people tend
> > > > > to
> > > > > >be zealous gatekeepers, a major obstacle to good
> > >hiring. Stern, a very
> > > > > >personable guy, took it good naturedly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Aron was personable too. Though the discussion got a
bit
> > >heated at
> > > > > >times (even with plenty of time to get my points
across,
I am
> > >irritated
> > > > > >when offered false choices such as "Who would you
rather
> > >believe on
> > > > > >H-1B, Paul Krugman or Charless Grassley?"), I look
forward to
> > >another
> > > > > >pleasant chat with him when we bump into each other
again.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Yet it's clear that Ravi and I are poles apart in,
literally,
> > >our views
> > > > > >of the world. It's not just ideology, but also a sense
of
> > > > > >nationality--or lack of one, as the case may be. I get
the
> > >impression
> > > > > >that Ravi is a member of a growing class of immigrants
to the
> > >U.S. who
> > > > > >consider themselves transnationals, not tied to any
particular
> > >country.
> > > > > >Just as many big firms view themselves as
multinational
(and,
> > >according
> > > > > >to Harvard economist Richard Freeman, even his
university
> > >thinks of
> > > > > >itself as multinational), there are now many
individuals
who
> > >have a
> > > > > >multinational mentality too. The trend has been
noticeable
> > >enough for
> > > > > >UC Berkeley anthropologist Aihwa Ong to write a book
on
it,
> > >titled
> > > > > >Flexible Citizenship.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Before coming to the U.S. for study and later work,
Ravi
was a
> > > > > >consultant in Malaysia, and for a while ran a software
firm in
> > >his
> > > > > >native India. It wouldn't surprise me if Ravi's next
job
were
> > >to be in
> > > > > >the UK or China, say. This has to color his views of
> > >offshoring and
> > > > > >H-1B.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >His stance on those issues is also presumably impacted
by his
> > >outside
> > > > > >consulting work on offshoring, which I'm told has been
quite
> > >lucrative
> > > > > >for him. (Speaking of which, one of the people writing
> > >comments on Don
> > > > > >Tennant's blog asserted that I have a "vested
interest"
> > >against H-1B;
> > > > > >but it ought to be clear that the status of the H-1B
program
> > >has no
> > > > > >substantial impact on me one way or the other.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >By the way, I posited three points that I thought
everyone
> > >could agree
> > > > > >on as to the desirability/necessity of keeping a major
> > >fraction of this
> > > > > >profession American. Two are in Don's excerpt
below--military
> > >work and
> > > > > >the need for innovation. The third one was the point
that
> > >whether we
> > > > > >think the importation of foreign programmers and
engineers is
> > >good or
> > > > > >not, they're not going to keep coming here in the
> > >future. Tech careers
> > > > > >in the U.S. are becoming less attractive, due to
stagnant
> > >wages and a
> > > > > >roller coaster job market, while jobs in India and
China
are
> > >on the
> > > > > >upswing. Even Mitch Stern, the HR expert, seemed very
> > >concerned when I
> > > > > >mentioned this. Yet Ravi dismissed it, saying that we
(he may
> > >have
> > > > > said
> > > > > >"you") can grow this labor force internally if things
come to
> > >that.
> > > > > >Mitch replied, no, this is not a feasible solution, as
it an
> > >economy
> > > > > >takes many years to make such adjustments.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >In a somewhat comic twist (whether deliberate or
unwitting),
> > >all of us
> > > > > >speakers were presented with special clocks, with a
map
of the
> > >world
> > > > > and
> > > > > >24 time zones, perfect for the globalist future. :-) I
did
> > >notice,
> > > > > >though, that in order to see the U.S. one needs to
hold
the
> > >clock
> > > > > upside
> > > > > >down. :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Norm
> > > > > >
> > > > > >http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/6482
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Matloff vs. Aron on the loss of U.S. IT jobs to
non-U.S.
> > >workers
> > > > > >
> > > > > >By Don Tennant on Mon, 11/05/2007 - 11:39am
> > > > > >
> > > > > >A couple of weeks ago I moderated a panel discussion
at
the
> > >fall
> > > > > meeting of
> > > > > >the UCLA Anderson School of Management IS Associates.
The
> > >topic of
> > > > > >discussion was the future of U.S. IT professionals in
a
global
> > >market,
> > > > > and
> > > > > >we focused on offshore outsourcing and the H-1B visa
> > >controversy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Much of the discussion took the form of a debate
between
> > >Professor
> > > > > Norman
> > > > > >Matloff of the University of California at Davis, a
long-time
> > >vocal
> > > > > critic
> > > > > >of the H-1B visa program; and Professor Ravi Aron of
the
> > >University of
> > > > > >Southern California Marshall School of Business, an
authority
> > >on
> > > > > offshore
> > > > > >outsourcing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >The following is an exchange between Matloff and Aron,
edited
> > >for
> > > > > clarity
> > > > > >and brevity. It began with Matloff's response to my
first
> > >question:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Is the premise that there is a shortage of IT workers
in
the
> > >U.S. fact
> > > > > or
> > > > > >fiction?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Matloff: You can look at it in terms of salaries a**
they're
> > >not going
> > > > > up.
> > > > > >There was a Business Week study that found that
starting
> > >salaries for
> > > > > >computer science and electrical engineering graduates,
> > >adjusting for
> > > > > >inflation, are on the downswing. There is no study,
other than
> > >those
> > > > > made by
> > > > > >the industry, that has established a shortage, even
during the
> > >dot-com
> > > > > boom.
> > > > > >The problem is that people are not willing to hire
who's
out
> > >there, and
> > > > > >largely it's a matter of money. That, in turn, becomes
a
> > >matter of age
> > > > > a**
> > > > > >older people cost more. They cost more in salary, they
cost
> > >more in
> > > > > >benefits. The whole thing about [there being a
shortage
> > >because of]
> > > > > baby
> > > > > >boomers retiring is kind of ludicrous, because almost
nobody
> > >gets to
> > > > > >retirement age in this business. After you reach age
40
or
> > >even age 35,
> > > > > you
> > > > > >find yourself becoming less employable. I'm talking
about my
> > >specialty,
> > > > > >which is software development, so everything I said
holds to
> > >that
> > > > > group. HR
> > > > > >doesn't know what to do with that mountain of
applications.
> > >They vet
> > > > > people
> > > > > >out, and the age issue is central a** it's a way to
filter out
> > >the
> > > > > older
> > > > > >people. Eminently qualified people can't even get an
> > >interview. It
> > > > > amounts
> > > > > >to legalized age discrimination.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Aron: If you're willing to pay enough, supply will
meet
> > >demand. Let me
> > > > > add:
> > > > > >You should not pay that much. The idea that there
exists
an
> > >exalted
> > > > > class of
> > > > > >[computer] aristocracy that should be pampered with
the
> > >salaries of
> > > > > their
> > > > > >desired level is baloney. We did not do this with
agricultural
> > >or steel
> > > > > >workers or bank tellers. There is absolutely no reason
> > >whatsoever for
> > > > > >someone coming into this occupation to feel entitled
to
an
> > >$85,000
> > > > > salary
> > > > > >and a bonus. If I can't get it, I find another
occupation. The
> > >road to
> > > > > China
> > > > > >winds through entitlement. No IT worker, now or in the
future,
> > >can have
> > > > > an
> > > > > >entitlement that says, "I have the right to bypass the
salary
> > >level set
> > > > > by
> > > > > >the market because in some way I'm critical to the
future of
> > >the United
> > > > > >States." Let the market decide that number. If you
find
that
> > >number
> > > > > >unacceptable, there are plenty of other things to do.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >How important is it to change the perception among
young
> > >people that an
> > > > > IT
> > > > > >job isn't worth pursuing because offshoring and H-1B
visas are
> > >making
> > > > > those
> > > > > >jobs too difficult to attain?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Matloff: You have to ask if this profession is
important
to us
> > >as a
> > > > > nation,
> > > > > >as an economy, as a society. There are some real
issues
there.
> > >There's
> > > > > an
> > > > > >obvious one: the military, which is very dependent on
> > >technology. We
> > > > > don't
> > > > > >want to offshore that. Regardless of what you think of
the
> > >war, you
> > > > > >obviously don't offshore that kind of stuff. On the
other
> > >hand, you
> > > > > can't
> > > > > >say, "We're going to produce just enough [IT talent]
for
the
> > >military."
> > > > > It
> > > > > >doesn't work that way. You have to have a critical
mass.
> > >Innovation is
> > > > > >supposed to be our forte in the United States. There's
a
lot
> > >of stuff
> > > > > that
> > > > > >we don't do well as a society, but we are creative.
And
if we
> > >offshore
> > > > > that
> > > > > >to a place where, on average, people are less
creative,
we're
> > >
> > >=== message truncated ===
> > >--
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