Re: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 153

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I know how you feel Mary. I was displaced as they call it in 2001 and have been fighting to get back into a programming position. I have done what I could to try and stay current. of course now companies don't want to interview me becuase they feel I am not current, but if I try to apply as a Jr Programmer I am told I have too much experience, go figure. For the past year I have been on a contract as a computer operator. it's boring and a non learning situation. I've thought about learning new languages but am hesitant with the present market. I'm beginning to believe I should just get out of IT, but hate to do so because I have so much time invested. Good luck Mary hope something comes up for you.


---- Alex Montalvo <alexmrpg@xxxxxxx> wrote:

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I am sorry to hear that Mary. I was on Public assistance after UI bennies
ran out 3 times over the past seven years how I stayed sane? I got good
and P.O'ed and told my story on this very site in 2001. And like then I
had more heckelers than peers at first then I started getting responses
from all over the country Steve Landess one the first from Texas. I
realized I was on to something I emailed and called everynews agency I
could got ignored mostly a few years later news shows started discussing
the very issues I had been yelling about. I'd like to think I and other
Disappointed Americans may have had something to do with it. I contact the
Senate and Congress so much I think they curse me out under their
breath every time they get a call fax or email from me.

I wish you Good Luck and best wishes in your future endevors and lets kick
some political ass shall we?

Alex Montalvo
AS/400 Consultant
1(917)442-5450 Cell

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mary Watkins <mary_watkins_developer@xxxxxxxxx>
To: Subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 153
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 08:47:41 -0800 (PST)
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this list.
>
>
>Well, as you all have heard from me within the last year, I can assure
you I am still an unemployed programmer and see no real opportunities in
the future. However, I still respond to listings and opportunities. I
do have an interview on Monday, so . . you never know. It is not
programming, but I am may get my foot in the door somewhere and work
back to an open position.
> It is unfortunate that the offshore companies have taken so many
"jobs" of all sorts from Americans. It positions are not the only form
of offshore shift. Ever try to resolve a situation with Sony, Samsung,
AT&T.
>The call centers are swamped with people of foreign accent trying to
speak to Americans. When they have no idea how to spell Mary or Watkins,
I usually hang up.
>
> If I had the answer to the situation I would not be unemployed to
date.
> This could be debated for the next few years. . .not sure how to
bring the jobs back here. . .One thing for sure do not give up the
salaries that are deserved. Bank tellers do not have to have 4 years of
education to gain employment whereas an IT professional does.
>
> As some suggested on the message board, it is time to be more
aggressive and initiate alternative measures to insure that one lands a
position here. It is of most importance to fight for our opportunities.
> Personally, I think it is time for Americans to let big businesses
know how we feel about the current policy of shipping job opportunites
to foreign countries. What happened to the land of the free? We are
free to do what here? Lately, my fmaily has been going hungry and
facing eviction about every 6 months.
>
> Respectfully,
> Mary Watkins
> 309-245-2682
>midrange-jobs-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
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>
>Today's Topics:
>
>1. Re: Fw: H-1B/offshoring debate at UCLA (Alex Montalvo)
>2. Re: Fw: H-1B/offshoring debate at UCLA (Michael Ryan)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>message: 1
>date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 11:55:11 -0500
>from: "Alex Montalvo"
>subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] Fw: H-1B/offshoring debate at UCLA
>
>For those who haven't been subject to constant short contracts and
early
>releases every time the market hiccups it's easy to judge someone else.
>
>Face bankrupcy while answering ad's from companies sponsoring h1b's
>blatently, lawyers all to happy advocate the same and none defending
your
>cause and see if you come away unjaded pal!
>
>Alex Montalvo
>AS/400 Consultant
>1(917)442-5450 Cell
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>From: "Michael Ryan"
>To: "Alex Montalvo"
>CC: sjl_abc@xxxxxxxxxxx, cpf0000@xxxxxxxxxxxx,
>midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] Fw: H-1B/offshoring debate at UCLA
>Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 11:10:51 -0500
> >Wow...quite the venomous diatribe. You made your point succinctly.
I'm
> >sure that anyone who reads this can understand you, your employment
> >issue and your belief system.
> >
> >On Nov 8, 2007 11:03 AM, Alex Montalvo wrote:
> > > *** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this
>list!
> > > *** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL
> > > *** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions
in
>this list.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I am a such a forty something coder who has been given my walking
>papers
> > > again from a Jewish owned textile company after 2 months three
>H1b
> > > consultants from India have been here for 7 + months are staying!
>The
> > > consulting company from India hired me for this all just so the
> > > permanently employed staff can take thier vacations and now that
>they are
> > > done so was I. Had to wait 30 days for my first pay check from
>India to
> > > get here and wait another five day's for it to clear all that and
>still
> > > get left out. This is the fourth time I have been subject to
>this. I am
> > > so sick of this senario. who the hell do I have to sue to get
>this ____ to
> > > stop?
> > >
> > >
> > > There is a underlying agenda it has been the case since the
>Reagan era and
> > > the undermining of labor unions, The corporate and political
>powers that
> > > be are turning a free market society into a kingdom without a
>king! Well
> > > there is one, consisting of many crowns(companies) and many
>horns(Crooked
> > > politicians and lawmakers & authorities) and many
>eyes(surveillance)
> > > Hmmmm! where have I heard that before? No I am not a religious
>fanatic but
> > > the simularites were just too obvieous to ignore.
> > >
> > > Alex Montalvo
> > > AS/400 Consultant
> > > 1(917)442-5450 Cell
> > >
> >
> >
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > From: "SJL"
> > > To: ,
> > > Subject: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] Fw: H-1B/offshoring debate at UCLA
> > > Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 08:08:32 -0600
> > > >*** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on
>this list!
> > > >*** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL
> > > >*** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment
>positions in
> > > this list.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >All -
> > > >
> > > >Dr. Norman Matloff is a professor of computer science at
>UC-Davis,
> > > >and is one of the leaders in the fight to keep technical jobs
>in this
> > > >country - and employ _Americans_ in those jobs...
> > > >
> > > >His opinion (based on much analysis of salary trends in our
> > > >business over the last 7 years) is that companies use H-1B
>workers
> > > >primarily for cheap labor.
> > > >
> > > >In this debate, Ravi Aron confirms this fact. During the
>debate,
> > > >globalist Ravi says (see full text in story below):
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Aron: If you're willing to pay enough, supply will meet
>demand.
> > > >
> > > >Let me add:
> > > >You should not pay that much.
> > > >
> > > >The idea that there exists an exalted class of
> > > >[computer] aristocracy that should be pampered with the
>salaries
> > > >of their desired level is baloney. We did not do this with
> > > >agricultural or steel workers or bank tellers.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >- Steve
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Norm Matloff"
> > > >To: "Norm Matloff"
> > > >Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 12:42 AM
> > > >Subject: H-1B/offshoring debate at UCLA
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >To: H-1B/L-1/offshoring e-newsletter
> > > >
> > > >On October 23, IS Associates, an industry affiliates program
>in the
> > > >UCLA Anderson School of Management, held a panel discussion on
>the
> > > >future of U.S. IT professionals, given the rise of H-1B and
>offshoring.
> > > >
> > > >This is one of the few panel discussions I've ever
>participated in that
> > > >gave everyone a chance to speak in full. Instead of the usual
>one
> > > hour,
> > > >we actually had three hours (including a break and a Q&A
>period) in
> > > >which to thoroughly debate the issues. That sounds like
>hardship for
> > > >both speakers and audience alike, but but the debate was quite
>lively
> > > >and the audience seemed quite engaged.
> > > >
> > > >Enclosed below is a blog report on the event by Don Tennant,
>who is
> > > >editor of Computerworld and served as the moderator of the
>event. He
> > > >posed some excellent questions, and included a couple of small
>excerpts
> > > >of the ensuing discussion in his blog.
> > > >
> > > >Though Don is correct in stating that much of the debate
>consisted of
> > > >exchanges between Prof. Ravi Aron and me, it's important to
>point out
> > > >that there were two other panelists, Jesus Arriaga, Interim
>CIO of
> > > >Bosley Medical, Inc. and Mitch Stern, Director Human Capital,
>Deloitte
> > > >Consulting. Mr. Stern, an HR expert, did have quite a bit to
>say, and
> > > >Mr. Arriaga made some interesting comments as well.
> > > >
> > > >As you will see in his remarks below, Prof. Aron takes the
>libertarian
> > > >point of view. He admits that the H-1B program is used for
>cheap labor
> > > >rather than for remedying a labor shortage, and over lunch
>before the
> > > >event he also admitted that the H-1Bs are mainly brought in so
>that
> > > >employers can avoid hiring older, i.e. 40+, Americans; indeed,
>he
> > > >brought this up before I did. (He also mentioned that to prep
>for the
> > > >debate, he talked to his former colleague at Wharton, Peter
>Cappelli,
> > > >whose writings on the non-shortage of labor I've often
>quoted.) He put
> > > >forth the usual argument, spoken with religious fervor and
>mathematical
> > > >certainty, that purely laissez faire economic policies make
>the world
> > > >better.
> > > >
> > > >For my part, I stated that I respect the libertarians because
>at least
> > > >they are honest about issues like this. However, I also
>stated that I
> > > >believe most people (including those in the audience) aren't
> > > >libertarians. My willingness to participate in forums such as
>this is
> > > >motivated mainly by a desire to get the facts out in the open;
>then
> > > each
> > > >listener can apply his own political/economic philosophy to
>forming his
> > > >stance on the issues.
> > > >
> > > >The nature of the audience, consisting of CIOs, IT managers,
>IT
> > > >entrepreneurs and the like, made for quite a different type of
> > > >discussion than one usually finds in these forums. They KNOW
>these
> > > >issues. This is the first such forum I've seen in which NO
>ONE (if I
> > > >remember correctly) challenged my point that H-1B is about
>cheap labor
> > > >and replacement of older workers. Even Stern and Arriaga,
>both of whom
> > > >strongly asserted a tech labor shortage, did not dispute these
>points,
> > > >and as mentioned, Aron did not dispute them either.
> > > >
> > > >One thing that got a big laugh and repeated references in the
> > > subsequent
> > > >discussion was that I said, "Paraphrasing Shakepeare, I say
>`First
> > > thing
> > > >we do is kill all the HR people.'" :-) After the event,
>several people
> > > >told me some of their own favorite horror HR stories. HR
>people tend
> > > to
> > > >be zealous gatekeepers, a major obstacle to good
>hiring. Stern, a very
> > > >personable guy, took it good naturedly.
> > > >
> > > >Aron was personable too. Though the discussion got a bit
>heated at
> > > >times (even with plenty of time to get my points across, I am
>irritated
> > > >when offered false choices such as "Who would you rather
>believe on
> > > >H-1B, Paul Krugman or Charless Grassley?"), I look forward to
>another
> > > >pleasant chat with him when we bump into each other again.
> > > >
> > > >Yet it's clear that Ravi and I are poles apart in, literally,
>our views
> > > >of the world. It's not just ideology, but also a sense of
> > > >nationality--or lack of one, as the case may be. I get the
>impression
> > > >that Ravi is a member of a growing class of immigrants to the
>U.S. who
> > > >consider themselves transnationals, not tied to any particular
>country.
> > > >Just as many big firms view themselves as multinational (and,
>according
> > > >to Harvard economist Richard Freeman, even his university
>thinks of
> > > >itself as multinational), there are now many individuals who
>have a
> > > >multinational mentality too. The trend has been noticeable
>enough for
> > > >UC Berkeley anthropologist Aihwa Ong to write a book on it,
>titled
> > > >Flexible Citizenship.
> > > >
> > > >Before coming to the U.S. for study and later work, Ravi was a
> > > >consultant in Malaysia, and for a while ran a software firm in
>his
> > > >native India. It wouldn't surprise me if Ravi's next job were
>to be in
> > > >the UK or China, say. This has to color his views of
>offshoring and
> > > >H-1B.
> > > >
> > > >His stance on those issues is also presumably impacted by his
>outside
> > > >consulting work on offshoring, which I'm told has been quite
>lucrative
> > > >for him. (Speaking of which, one of the people writing
>comments on Don
> > > >Tennant's blog asserted that I have a "vested interest"
>against H-1B;
> > > >but it ought to be clear that the status of the H-1B program
>has no
> > > >substantial impact on me one way or the other.)
> > > >
> > > >By the way, I posited three points that I thought everyone
>could agree
> > > >on as to the desirability/necessity of keeping a major
>fraction of this
> > > >profession American. Two are in Don's excerpt below--military
>work and
> > > >the need for innovation. The third one was the point that
>whether we
> > > >think the importation of foreign programmers and engineers is
>good or
> > > >not, they're not going to keep coming here in the
>future. Tech careers
> > > >in the U.S. are becoming less attractive, due to stagnant
>wages and a
> > > >roller coaster job market, while jobs in India and China are
>on the
> > > >upswing. Even Mitch Stern, the HR expert, seemed very
>concerned when I
> > > >mentioned this. Yet Ravi dismissed it, saying that we (he may
>have
> > > said
> > > >"you") can grow this labor force internally if things come to
>that.
> > > >Mitch replied, no, this is not a feasible solution, as it an
>economy
> > > >takes many years to make such adjustments.
> > > >
> > > >In a somewhat comic twist (whether deliberate or unwitting),
>all of us
> > > >speakers were presented with special clocks, with a map of the
>world
> > > and
> > > >24 time zones, perfect for the globalist future. :-) I did
>notice,
> > > >though, that in order to see the U.S. one needs to hold the
>clock
> > > upside
> > > >down. :-)
> > > >
> > > >Norm
> > > >
> > > >http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/6482
> > > >
> > > >Matloff vs. Aron on the loss of U.S. IT jobs to non-U.S.
>workers
> > > >
> > > >By Don Tennant on Mon, 11/05/2007 - 11:39am
> > > >
> > > >A couple of weeks ago I moderated a panel discussion at the
>fall
> > > meeting of
> > > >the UCLA Anderson School of Management IS Associates. The
>topic of
> > > >discussion was the future of U.S. IT professionals in a global
>market,
> > > and
> > > >we focused on offshore outsourcing and the H-1B visa
>controversy.
> > > >
> > > >Much of the discussion took the form of a debate between
>Professor
> > > Norman
> > > >Matloff of the University of California at Davis, a long-time
>vocal
> > > critic
> > > >of the H-1B visa program; and Professor Ravi Aron of the
>University of
> > > >Southern California Marshall School of Business, an authority
>on
> > > offshore
> > > >outsourcing.
> > > >
> > > >The following is an exchange between Matloff and Aron, edited
>for
> > > clarity
> > > >and brevity. It began with Matloff's response to my first
>question:
> > > >
> > > >Is the premise that there is a shortage of IT workers in the
>U.S. fact
> > > or
> > > >fiction?
> > > >
> > > >Matloff: You can look at it in terms of salaries a** they're
>not going
> > > up.
> > > >There was a Business Week study that found that starting
>salaries for
> > > >computer science and electrical engineering graduates,
>adjusting for
> > > >inflation, are on the downswing. There is no study, other than
>those
> > > made by
> > > >the industry, that has established a shortage, even during the
>dot-com
> > > boom.
> > > >The problem is that people are not willing to hire who's out
>there, and
> > > >largely it's a matter of money. That, in turn, becomes a
>matter of age
> > > a**
> > > >older people cost more. They cost more in salary, they cost
>more in
> > > >benefits. The whole thing about [there being a shortage
>because of]
> > > baby
> > > >boomers retiring is kind of ludicrous, because almost nobody
>gets to
> > > >retirement age in this business. After you reach age 40 or
>even age 35,
> > > you
> > > >find yourself becoming less employable. I'm talking about my
>specialty,
> > > >which is software development, so everything I said holds to
>that
> > > group. HR
> > > >doesn't know what to do with that mountain of applications.
>They vet
> > > people
> > > >out, and the age issue is central a** it's a way to filter out
>the
> > > older
> > > >people. Eminently qualified people can't even get an
>interview. It
> > > amounts
> > > >to legalized age discrimination.
> > > >
> > > >Aron: If you're willing to pay enough, supply will meet
>demand. Let me
> > > add:
> > > >You should not pay that much. The idea that there exists an
>exalted
> > > class of
> > > >[computer] aristocracy that should be pampered with the
>salaries of
> > > their
> > > >desired level is baloney. We did not do this with agricultural
>or steel
> > > >workers or bank tellers. There is absolutely no reason
>whatsoever for
> > > >someone coming into this occupation to feel entitled to an
>$85,000
> > > salary
> > > >and a bonus. If I can't get it, I find another occupation. The
>road to
> > > China
> > > >winds through entitlement. No IT worker, now or in the future,
>can have
> > > an
> > > >entitlement that says, "I have the right to bypass the salary
>level set
> > > by
> > > >the market because in some way I'm critical to the future of
>the United
> > > >States." Let the market decide that number. If you find that
>number
> > > >unacceptable, there are plenty of other things to do.
> > > >
> > > >How important is it to change the perception among young
>people that an
> > > IT
> > > >job isn't worth pursuing because offshoring and H-1B visas are
>making
> > > those
> > > >jobs too difficult to attain?
> > > >
> > > >Matloff: You have to ask if this profession is important to us
>as a
> > > nation,
> > > >as an economy, as a society. There are some real issues there.
>There's
> > > an
> > > >obvious one: the military, which is very dependent on
>technology. We
> > > don't
> > > >want to offshore that. Regardless of what you think of the
>war, you
> > > >obviously don't offshore that kind of stuff. On the other
>hand, you
> > > can't
> > > >say, "We're going to produce just enough [IT talent] for the
>military."
> > > It
> > > >doesn't work that way. You have to have a critical mass.
>Innovation is
> > > >supposed to be our forte in the United States. There's a lot
>of stuff
> > > that
> > > >we don't do well as a society, but we are creative. And if we
>offshore
> > > that
> > > >to a place where, on average, people are less creative, we're
>
>=== message truncated ===
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