Ross - thank you for clarifying the details. One of the exposures in
participating in a discussion like this is - you only know what you read
here. I am confident that Infor can handle this and other situations
professionally and individually. Also, something I meant to mention, I am
very glad that folks from Infor are participating in this forum. That is
often a direct source of clarification and straight-from-the-horses-mouth
information.
It is agreed that this is a good discussion to have - valuable for the
community. We all have our motives and are all correct in our statements
- constrained by our perspectives. But I think it's important to realize
that some of us get "stuck" with situations we are forced to handle. Like
code that has been heavily modified by predecessors. Of course source
isn't free. It doesn't appear that most of this discussion is about cost
- but about where we all are with our MAPICS systems and where we should
be. All of us would like to have the luxury of having no modified source,
only user exits, and Enterprise Integrator as a fantastic tool. But we
have to get there first ! And of course most of us are not in this to do
programming - but to provide a tool (ERP) to support our businesses. It's
always a process - and never an easy one.
Dee Sondergard
Information Systems International, Inc.
A Global ERP Consulting Firm
815-398-1670
ISI consultants ensure consistently top quality implementation services at
all levels of your organization.
From:
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Date:
09/03/2009 12:10 PM
Subject:
MAPICS-L Digest, Vol 7, Issue 151
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Source code costs (Kevin Fox)
2. Re: Source code costs (Kevin Fox)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
message: 1
date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 09:26:22 -0700
from: "Kevin Fox" <kdfox@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
subject: Re: [MAPICS-L] Source code costs
Eric
Since I know you well enough to know that you won't take offense, I'm
going
to use your posting to put my two cents into the mix.
I have to disagree with you. Dick Cook and his cronies only did one thing
right, they kept mapics out of that protean mess. However, while claiming
to "support our customer base" they ran mapics to ground...that is why
there
is still green screen application screens in 2009 (hopefully soon to be
forgotten).
Infor on the other had has invested heavily in developing AND executing a
very sound strategy to rescue its customers from the 1980's. Has anyone
realized that they can upgrade to the latest code for next to nothing?
(Flex
program) Does anyone realize that their ALF now includes the free
deployment
on a module by module bases of the SOA architecture? (BTW, how many of
you
have deployed in a test environment MY DAY? And yes I know that the XA
integration is a work in progress, but still, do you have plans for it?)
Anyone who claims that INFOR is not concerned with supporting its customer
base is either just plan ignorant of the facts or continues to get all
gooey
and mushy when they see green screens. Giving away code is NOT supporting
your customer, it is guaranteeing that they will eventually be unsupported
or have antiquated software which makes their business processes in
efficient.
Has anyone deployed SupplyWeb? We have seen 300-400% process ROI's. It's
a
MUST HAVE. I'd like to know if 1) you have deployed, 2) you are in the
process of deploying, 3) you don't think you need it, 4) you have no idea
what I'm talking about.
BTW, everyone should know that many of the "protesters" on this log are
either a: former employees of failed companies that refused to understand
the INVESTMENT in IT/IS required and now no longer use any system much
less
MAPICS because they are out of business or sold to a company that DID
INVEST
in IT/IS; b: current consultants who get their money from RPG green screen
programming and can't understand why the world has changed; c: current
employees of customers that still, in 2009, do not understand the value
and/or strategy of investing in IT/IS.
It is very interesting for me to see that the "defenders" of the policies
(excluding INFOR employees of course) are usually customers that are very
proactive about process improvement and investment in the supporting IT/IS
requirements.
Let me refer to the specific issue of the source code. Understand that
this
company is still on R3 circa 1994-96. (I implemented the first R3 code
with
IFM and remember well the pain!) They have not invested for more than 15
years and STILL don't want to invest. They see the source code as a COST.
If they have properly done their homework, there should be a good business
case including ROI that says that staying on the current code, investing
in
source code, investing in a programmers annuity to maintain the code
structure for x number of years is cost justified. But I think not, they
just complain about the cost. These are the companies that either have
low
growth, no growth or just don't care. I could be wrong, but I'd love to
hear what the cost justification was to begin to migrate to R7 code base
and
if enterprise integrator is included in their analysis.
My advice to my clients is always the same, if you can cost justify moving
to a different ERP solution you have a moral(!) obligation to do so. If
you
cannot, then you have an equal obligation to invest in process
improvements
and where practical utilize the new features and functions that you are
entitled to with your ALF.
Everyone on this list should know that I do not work for INFOR or any of
the
INFOR channel partners or INFOR software partners. I have however been
co-founder of two different MAPICS affiliates, designed, architected and
developed the XA PLM software, and have worked for MAPICS / XA clients in
26
countries for the past 32 years. My only source of revenue is advising
management teams on how to improve processes by selecting and deploying
information systems; very often this has been MAPICS, MAPICS XA or INFOR
XA,
but just as often it is something else.
I hope that I've continued to stir up the pot on this topic. This is good
for the community.
Kevin Fox
Fox Enterprises and Professional Services LLC
(909) 762-1384
-----Original Message-----
From: mapics-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:mapics-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Eric A. Wolf
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:03 AM
To: 'MAPICS ERP System Discussion'
Subject: Re: [MAPICS-L] Source code costs
One thing that we (the XA user community) have to realize is that the XA
customer base is not as large it used to be. Remember the days when you
would here that "MAPICS is being used world-wide by over 4000 customers"?
That number is probably closer to 1400 now.
At the first Infor (combined) conference, I felt like the XA users were
only
a small part of the Infor community. I guess what I am saying is that we
are
no longer the primary customer base of Infor and they are looking at the
bigger picture. We just have to get used to it.
IMHO...
Eric
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------------------------------
message: 2
date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 09:29:02 -0700
from: "Kevin Fox" <kdfox@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
subject: Re: [MAPICS-L] Source code costs
This sounds much more reasonable that your original post.
-----Original Message-----
From: mapics-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:mapics-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Kevin Mann
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 9:19 AM
To: mapics-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [MAPICS-L] Source code costs
A rebuttal to Ross's comments;
As the originator of this post, I would like to again clarify a few
points. When I started using Mapics (Mapics II) the source code was
delivered free with your purchase of Mapics. I remember working for
other companies in the 90s when either Marcam or Mapics started charging
for source code. This was supposed to be a one time charge for source
code never to be charged again. The companies that I worked for during
that time had to purchase source code. Research, at my current company
shows that they purchased source code for Mapics XA in 1997. Source code
was provided for XA release 4 in 2004 and again after I arrived here in
2005 for release 7. There are people at Infor that have acknowledged to
me that we do indeed have the rights to the source code. In Ross's first
post he said that if you paid for it you should have it. I don't know
when the ALF for source came about, but I can not find anyone in my area
that had heard of it, including affiliates and former affiliates. We
were using a local affiliate in 2005 and 2006 while converting to
release 7. There was no mention of and no knowledge of ALF's at that
time.
I have no desire to modify more XA source code. I am only looking to
maintain what we are currently using, which unfortunately, is heavily
modified in some applications. In this instance I was looking for the
source code for an inventory tag print file to see if I could get it to
print on a laser printer. Source is also needed before I can apply a PTF
against a previously modified program. I can understand Infor being more
protective of their source code, but they must recognize the predicament
that they are putting long time customers like us in, if we can't apply
PTF's anymore.
As to Josh's comments;
This incident started with my starting inquiring to support when I could
not find the source code download. This was escalated to the point we
are at now which is talking with Infor management. The lawsuit that you
mention would be a last resort which I would hope doesn't happen. I made
my original post here only to notify others in my position that may have
been unaware of this change.
Note: I have had a conversation with someone in management with Infor's
support team this morning. This person is researching our situation and
will hopefully get back to me with some positive news.
Thanks,
Kevin
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End of MAPICS-L Digest, Vol 7, Issue 151
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