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I guess I assumed that your HTML guy doesn't like Dojo because you said that he doesn't like tables ("ancient technology" and all that). You've walked that back, now, so my statement no longer applies. I made no other assumptions.

EGL uses two frameworks, it's own and Dojo. The two complement one another, but both are completely CSS driven. You create your UI using a powerful WYSIWYG designer that supports whatever you want to do, whether it's a gridded layout (lots of business applications still work within that paradigm) or a completely DIV/SPAN driven design. EGL doesn't force you into anything, it just makes the plumbing very easy.

"how does it do with accessibility"

Industry best. It uses Dojo. Ask your HTML guy about ARIA. Then go here for an overview of Dojo's i16n and a11y capabilities (and this is three years old!): http://peller.dojotoolkit.org/GlobalAccess-AjaxWorld2008.pdf. Dojo did a11y before a11y was cool. :)

"and the one about tables for non-table layout makes me suspicious"

I don't even understand this statement, Vern, so I can't address it. Of all the things you're complaining about, do you know that EGL does ANY of them? (Hint: It does not.) Or are you just relating your own experiences with bad HTML and assuming EGL does it that way? Really, you might want to actually use the product and then let us know what you don't like about it. The EGL team is always looking for solid input.

Joe



Nothing religious here - I just didn't say enough - of course, tables
are the right thing to use for tables. They are not the right thing for
layout of other things - where, for example, a table column of width 5
pixels is used to create borders. This may have been the only way once
upon a time. (I modernized a site that used a table for a graphic
element with different colored squares - and all manner of other things
like that.)

So I stand by my statement about ancient somewhat modified to apply to
things that are not tables.

You make too many assumptions - I will ignore those. I said nothing
about what my colleague likes. He tried it out very briefly and found
the issue with inappropriate use of tables. He had a couple other
comments that might land in the religious realm, so I'll let them go for
now.

The combination of CSS with DIVs, etc., is accepted nowadays as more
appropriate - and some kind of framework, whether dojo or jquery or
extjs - is that the right name for that last one?

I'm glad one can put your own HTML in there.

Another question - how does it do with accessibility? Things like using
<em> instead of<b>, so that screen readers can correctly interpret
intent that is not purely visual.

I guess I think that the thing should produce, by default, HTML that
follows current best practices, and the one about tables for non-table
layout makes me suspicious. And that a developer should not have to do
that much of sidework to get the newer stuff in there.

Nonetheless, I'll continue to take a look in my spare time.

Vern

On 12/11/2011 1:48 AM, Joe Pluta wrote:
Your GHK seems to have a few misconceptions.

First, tables are hardly "ancient technology". The TABLE, TR and TD
tags are still the best way to show and control a table of data (known
as a Grid or DataGrid in most Rich UI circles) and are used by all of
the major JavaScript frameworks for their grids. Evidently your GHK
doesn't approve of things like the Dojo grid - I'd love to see an
example of how they show a grid of data - particularly one with movable,
sortable columns, which is what comes out of the box with EGL.

But if you're somehow morally opposed to tables (which I find odd -
programming is about business decisions, not religious decisions, but
for the sake of argument let's go with it), then the Grid layout is only
one way of doing things. EGL allows you to use absolutely any HTML you
care to, from SPANs to DIVs to your own custom HTML using an HTML
object. I happen to be working on a complex UI with multiple
collapsible panels with distinct right and left-hand sides. The
left-hand sides are completely free-form, while the right-hand sides all
line up (they keep running totals).

I did it by creating my own widget which has the common right-hand side
components and then a DIV to contain the left-hand side. Since some
these components can be indented, it takes some work to keep the
right-hand side nicely lined up, but I do it using CSS. EGL is very,
very CSS friendly. It's also very friendly to UI developers because
it's quite easy play to create your own widgets. And those custom
widgets can then be used in the WYSIWYG designer. I've never seen that
level of customization before, and that's what EGL was designed for.

So, anyway, yes, you can use things other than tables for those
situations where tables aren't appropriate. At the same time, there are
still lots of places in business application design where tables are
appropriate and EGL supports that as well.

Joe

One thing not to like, according to our GHK who really know HTML and
things related, is that is uses tables for layout - this is ancient
technology now.

Is there a way to change that to use DIVs, etc.?

Vern

On 12/10/2011 5:32 PM, Joe Pluta wrote:
Anybody who doesn't at least TRY this product is really missing out on a
great Christmas present, and a tool that could quite possibly change how
they develop. One language, multiple tiers, open source. What's not to
like?

For example, with EGL it's very easy to have two datasources open - and
thus, you can easily read from DB2/i and write to MSSQL, or vice versa,
with code like this:

get Customer from dsDB2;
add Customer to dsMSSQL;

Me likee. :)

Joe

That's good news on that front, for those who want to use this product,
anyhow!

Later
Vern

On 12/9/2011 5:12 PM, Joe Pluta wrote:
On 12/9/2011 5:05 PM, Joe Pluta wrote:
The free EGL does not have the EGL program call support. You can still
call RPG programs via a stored procedure or write your own Java class
(EGL is phenomenal about that). But have no fear, the RPG program call
is on the priority list for version 0.8.0! :)

Urk... of course I meant RPG program call support. The RPG program call
support is not there yet. But it's being worked on and it looks like
it's going to be a real improvement over what we have, hopefully
completely avoiding the "obscure magic EGL configuration file" approach.

Joe


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