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Hi Joe, You make a lot of sense Joe. And what you say is, from my own experience, quite true. Do you think that IBM has done as well with the interfaces for this stuff as Micro$oft has? I confess I seldom use Micro$oft tools and base my opinion on what those I have worked with tell me and my passing familiarity with VB. I believe a large part of *my* problem may have been that the wsdl I was given was generated by front line Micro$oft tools which are written to discourage use by people like me. But that doesn't answer for the time I spent trying to get ANY app installed in was. Then the time I spent trying to install the webservice (I finally found out that of the several approaches (menu options in admin) to installing applications only one has actually worked for me). I now have created a new virtual host and assigned it to my new webservice. And now was won't start. Where are the error messages? I am sure comprehensible error messages exist somewhere, But where? I don't know. So now I call IBM again and wait for someone to call me back while the deadline looms closer and closer. Maybe everybody goes through this sort of thing and the Microsoft guys are shading the truth to make the koolaid look sweeter - I don't know. But if this is normal, I will be glad when I have paid enough of my dues to get past this and have an application server that runs and can be managed. They say you can get used to hanging if you hang long enough... Regards, Rick DuVall Systems Manager Dealer's Auto Auction of Okc 405 947-2886 Ext:143 rick@xxxxxxxxxx -----Original Message----- From: midrange-l-bounces+r_c_duvall=daaokc.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:midrange-l-bounces+r_c_duvall=daaokc.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Joe Pluta Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 12:40 PM To: 'Midrange Systems Technical Discussion' Subject: RE: Green screen to GUI I understand what you're saying, Rick, but you have to realize: none of this stuff is actually standardized. This isn't like disk I/O or 5250 communications or even, God help us, Bisync. This is the exciting world of the web: bloated, arcane, and inscrutable. Look at a SOAP document (which us the underlying technology of Web Services). It is clearly a really poorly implemented design-by-committee piece of junk. It's got more overhead than a pork-barrel political project, with required fields that shouldn't be and default values for other fields which make no sense. You could strip out 50% of a SOAP message and still have lots of fat to cut. There hasn't been a decently designed web protocol since the original HTTP, and those that come close (such as XML-RPC) get squashed by vendors like Microsoft, who insist on standards that require big, complicated IDEs just to create a simple Hello World. Anyway, I wish I could tell you it gets better, but it doesn't. HTML is relatively standardized, but JavaScript isn't. Cascading Style Sheets are also pretty solid, but frameworks packages bloom, wither and die in a cycle sometimes measured in months. As someone said, we're sort of in the VHS vs. Betamax stage, although I liken it more to the pre-XMODEM days of async ommunications. Back then there were a gillion protocols all vying for position, and the simplest actually won. I hold less hope for the networked services community, simply because it is dominated by theory-heavy committees, not hands-dirty technicians, but that's just me. <g> Joe > From: Rick DuVall > > I just hate spending my time wrestling with 'how does it really > work and how can I make it work?' issues when in my mind the > infrastructure of this web stuff should be exposed in a very > obvious way.
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