Re: CODE/400 -- MIDRANGE-L

** Reply to note from DAsmussen <DAsmussen@aol.com> Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:17:09 EST

> Ah, but within "similar capability" lies "the rub".  Most companies that have
> bothered to invest in true C/S tools have done so with either VB, VC++, or
> VJAVA.  They get the language, an editor, and an interactive debugger in your
> stated price range.  What do CODE/400 users get for $800US more?  "Smaller
> market segment" is hardly a selling point, and _exactly_ what the others on
> the list have been protesting.

Dean, let's not pretend that if IBM drops the price of Code/400 they will
ship as many copies as VB. Just a few moments thought might indicate to
you that the two markets are different size. For the product to be a
success and to allow for upgrades, growth, and future support, it has to
make a profit. If it is a money loser, they will just dump it.

Before you suggest that they will make it up by selling more hardware,
recall that IBM can sell hardware running NT and they don't have to take a
loss on software to do so. It isn't IBM that will be retooling at that
time.

What do Code/400 buyers get that Visual Basic buyers don't? Well, the
Code/400 gets a product designed specifically to work with the AS/400.
Isn't that where your profession is? Isn't it you who gets the benefit of
the increased productivity and ease of use? 

>   
> >  If companies are going to steal software, whether that be Visual Basic or
> >  Code/400, then they are going to do that. If IBM drops the price on
> >  Code/400, it will simply mean that these companies are stealing a cheaper
> >  product.
>   
> Exactly.  They can steal VB for $100US a pop, or CODE for around $900US/pop.
> Duhhh, which product would _you_ steal under the same circumstances?  Even
> stolen copies would mean more people using CODE, thus increasing the
> likelihood that the thieves would recommend it to a new employer.  

Well, given the same choice, I wouldn't steal either one! Nor would anyone
else at a place where I am employed. I make my living selling software, so
I discourage stealing it. 

By the way, why would you think that someone would prefer to steal a
cheaper product?

> Again, I disagree.  If I weren't shackled to the AS/Set CASE tool by SSA's
> BPCS product, I'd buy CODE/400 in a nano-(perhaps ohno?) second.  Most AS/400
> shops that actually _have_ a development staff _WANT_ to do something new.
> Unfortunately, their peers (met at LUGs) are using VB or PowerBuilder -- _NOT_
> CODE/400.

Well, I'd have to say the preponderance of evidence shows you are wrong.
While these people might see VB or PowerBuilder, they don't do anything.
If you are writing RPG code on an AS/400, for the last several years
Code/400 has been a great tool to enhance that. 

What you are telling me is that you think programmers and managers who are
cannot find enough staff members and who have a backlog of programs
needing coding decided not to pay $800 because there are cheaper packages
that don't let them develop RPG for an AS/400. 

If the product cost $5000 a seat, it would be a good deal for AS/400 shops
anyway. 

If an MIS shop doesn't have a backlog and doesn't need to increase
productivity, they could buy the product and fire some of their staff.
Then those guys could buy a copy of VB, and sit around the house pasting
together apps and watching them blow up.

> If you are fortunate enough to work at a shop that works with major packages,
> you are (in part) saddled with:
>   
> A.  AS/Set CASE tool -- SSA's BPCS.
> B.  Synon CASE tool -- MAPICS and others.
> C.  WorldVision CASE tool -- JD Edwards.
>   
> I'm sure that there are others (couldn't remember the package that specified
> Lansa's CASE tool).  In these instances you _CANNOT_ use an editor other than
> the one provided by the CASE tool.  Also, there is no (desirable) way to
> "reverse-engineer" your tool-generated code into CODE/400, unless you plan on
> never taking another vendor-supplied upgrade.

And your point here is? I could have sworn we were discussing the merit of
Code/400 compared to SEU. If you are already "saddled" with a tool that
increases productivity, then I don't think that falls into this
discussion. Except for, of course, indicating that AS/400 shops must be
forced into improving their tools. In this case, you indicate that you
must be forced into using a Case tool and that you resent it.

> Righto, mate!

Agreed. One of us is disappointed that lured and coerced into improving
productivity. If this keeps up, IBM might decide that AS/400 shops are on
their way out and IBM needs to find a new set of developers if they want
to keep the hardware shipping. 

> Dean Asmussen
 

Chris Rehm
Mr.AS400@ibm.net

How often can you afford to be unexpectedly out of business?
Get an AS/400.
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