Sorry, I don't think that is a great strategy, because when
5250 disappears, and it will, what will become of the RPG
programmer and thereby all his application and company know-
legde ?
I also disagrees with Mike's statement: "I caution anyone who
paints with a broad brush when the canvas is as intricate as
the future of our field!"
Most programmer dosn't have a clue of the underlying environment
they actually is programming in. Just to make some examples,
the MI layer, the 5250 processor, the single level storage and
how the algorithms is working, the HTML renderer in a browser,
the components in a browser etc. etc. - they know as little
about these things as the user that uses their programs know
about programming or a cardriver knows about how their car
actually works.
So where is it written that a programmer has to know anything
about the OOjavascript that runs in the browser or in the iPOD
or in the iPAD ?
Most users and most programmers dosn't need a Formel 1, the need
a Folkswagon, simple to use and simple to drive.
So the basic task is to provide RPGLE programmers with that
Folkswagon and not to scare them into thinking that they have
to learn to master a Formel 1, even though they both have wheels
and a stering weel.
A modernization process is not a process where you move a system
from on technology to another using all the new possible features
of the new technology, it is a process where you have to move a
large amount of programs from one UI to another in the shortest
possible time and the smallest learningcurve.
Whenever you stand before a task, you should use a tool that is
constructed for that task, an nobody can convince my that either
ZEND, RAILS, .NET or WEBSPHERE is constructed to move a 60+ RPG
programmer with 1500 5250 programs into a modern world with the
speed of light and with a small learningcurve.
Or have you/they made psychological studies on how the majority
of this group acted when they went from RPGII/FORMATS to RPGIII/
DDS 20 years ago (the last major modernization) or sociological
studies on the general discurse they a working under ?
What is their learningstyle, do you give them a 3 month course
or a step by step learning, what are their logical view and
undertandig of processes (they have been living 20 years in a
procedural world/environment), do you think is is worth while to
try to teach them what a tree traversal algorithm and then leave
them on their own to code such a thing ?
I actually don't think any of the above mention products construc-
ters has given it any thought, primarly because they dosn't have
given it any thoughts, secondary because they simple dosn't have
either the skills or the resource to do the task.
Remember, in 1913 any car manufactor said that making cars on an
assembly line couldn't be done, Henry Ford did it, and it seems to
me that all the others was wrong, so of cource it can be done, but
not by people that can't see the forest for the trees.
/Henrik
"Mike Pavlak" <Mike.Pavlak@xxxxxxxx>
Sent by: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
30-03-2010 15:51
Please respond to
Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries <web400@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To
"Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries" <web400@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
cc
Subject
Re: [WEB400] Would you take a complimentary course on HTMLfrom acompany
whose website looked like this?
Great response Kelly! So on the other hand, your RPG programmers
probably have a TON of business knowledge locked up in their heads. Do
the web developers really want to learn the difference between a
Requisition, a Purchase Order and a Payable? Each person should be
considered individually and an education plan designed around their
needs. BUT, that takes effort and energy for both the resource and
manager. Sometimes it may be easier to hire a web developer and
sometimes it is appropriate. Obviously, your mileage may vary!
I like Aaron's point regarding templating as it appears to be the best
of both worlds. But in my experience I have run into some web
programmers who want to learn enterprise and business development. I
caution anyone who paints with a broad brush when the canvas is as
intricate as the future of our field!
Regards,
Mike
mike.p@xxxxxxxx Cell: (408)679-1011 Office: (815)722-3454
Zend Server for IBM i Beta avilable at
http://www.zend.com/en/products/server/zend-server-5-new-ibmi
-----Original Message-----
From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Kelly Cookson
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 8:37 AM
To: Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries
Subject: Re: [WEB400] Would you take a complimentary course on HTMLfrom
acompany whose website looked like this?
I've created some web pages that look decent...but I did it by surfing
the web until I found a page design that I liked/wanted and tried to
mimic it best I could.
With enough training and the right tools, I think most RPG/COBOL
developers could make respectable web pages. The questions to me are:
How much training? What kinds of training? What kinds of tools? Will
your RPG/COBOL developers even want to be retrained as web developers?
When does it become more practical to hire web developers than to
retrain RPG/COBOL developers?
Plus, professional web developers work full-time learning the art of
making great web pages. RPG/COBOL programmers won't have the same amount
of time to devote to learning the art of creating web pages. That may
always be a handicap when it comes to developing award-winning designs.
Kelly Cookson
Senior Programmer/Analyst
Dot Foods, Inc.
217-773-4486 x12676
www.dotfoods.com
-----Original Message-----
From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Mike Pavlak
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 7:52 AM
To: Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries
Subject: Re: [WEB400] Would you take a complimentary course on HTML from
acompany whose website looked like this?
Michael,
Thank you for your honesty! It is refreshing in many cases. If you'll
permit me to peel back one more layer of the onion let me ask you one
question. Do you (or anyone else on this thread) believe your
limitations regarding "the whole visual thing" is a choice or a
handicap?
I will offer my own personal experience once I have seen a few responses
as I would rather not taint the well of free thought. I do believe
education is paramount to staying current whether it is free or for
charge. And by that I mean the act of learning and not just sitting
through a webinar because the boss told you to. In today's
technological society, if you are not moving forward you are standing
still. And if everyone else is moving forward around you that means you
will probably get run over. It may be an overused saying but it sure
feels like what's going on out there!
Regards,
Mike
mike.p@xxxxxxxx Cell: (408)679-1011 Office: (815)722-3454
Zend Server for IBM i Beta avilable at
http://www.zend.com/en/products/server/zend-server-5-new-ibmi
-----Original Message-----
From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Michael Ryan
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 7:31 AM
To: Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries
Subject: Re: [WEB400] Would you take a complimentary course on HTML from
acompany whose website looked like this?
I think that's a great point Kelly. I think I'm among a lot of iSeries
folks
that think in terms of lists. That's our background. And I know when
I've
designed web sites, it looks like a list of 'things' cause that's the
way I
think. I can produce some really nice ETL code for loading to web sites,
and
I can write some really good code to process orders from web sites, but
the
whole visual thing isn't me.
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 8:21 AM, Kelly Cookson
<KCookson@xxxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:
For all we know the source behind gotomeeting page was auto-generated
code
(or at least partially auto-generated). The source behind BCD's home
page is
better. At any rate, like Mike said earlier, the only way to fairly
judge
the quality of the webinar is to attend it.
I also agree with Vern: the excellent tutorials at www.w3schools.com
are
probably just as good or better than the webinar in terms of the
information
provided. Yet, some people are auditory learners and want to hear the
information from a live teacher. They will also have the benefit of
being
able to ask questions.
I think these posts do raise an interesting question of how
RPG/COBOL/CL
programmers should be retrained in IBM i modernization. Do we really
expect
people who are great at developing RPG and COBOL programs to be great
at
designing web pages as well?
Kelly Cookson
Senior Programmer/Analyst
Dot Foods, Inc.
217-773-4486 x12676
www.dotfoods.com
-----Original Message-----
From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
On
Behalf Of Dean, Robert
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 6:47 AM
To: web400@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [WEB400] Would you take a complimentary course on HTML
from a
company whose website looked like this?
The ugly part isn't necessarily how the page looks, it's the HTML
behind
that page.
-----Original Message-----
From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
On
Behalf Of Tom Deskevich
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 7:39 AM
To: web400@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [WEB400] Would you take a complimentary course on HTML from a
company whose website looked like this?
Shoot me, but I don't think it looks that bad. I guess I have spent
too
many
years with 5250.
I guess we don't' care if it works or flows well, or how long it takes
to
bring the page up, just how pretty it is.
That is the difference is taking wares to the market now I guess. It
HAS to
look good first.
Tom Deskevich
This message was sent via bag phone.
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