Re: Truly later thinking...Honey, grab me another beer

Excellent, Mike, I agree with all your points. As I said in an earlier post, I am very pleased about what Zend and IBM have done in putting PHP on the iseries right, and the more who use the iseries to provide a more powerful computing environment using it and everything else on the i the better.

It's true that PHP on the i provides exactly the same interface to the uniqueness of the iseries as Java with the AS/400 Toolkit call equivalents, so quite frankly I think it's possible to do just about anything in any direction on the i in any mix of technologies, barring Microsoft proprietary products for Windows (.Net, and oh yeah if Mono is done we can drop that caveat).

I think PHP is overkill for this project, the third largest overhead of Net.Data, CGIDEV2, and PHP, with other no cost alternatives being even higher overhead, but was responding to the points of ruling out everything but PHP.

The numbers are just silly. Yes, there's a zillion PHP things going on on Windows and Linux boxes, because people have Windows and Linux boxes and the thing is script, web hosts will only support something that simple.

And yes, there are very few Net.Data developers, because for starters there's relatively few RPG developers compared to Java and Visual (I refuse to say .Net, it's a ripoff of JVM and ILE, so screw 'em).

It's like, how much more support would someone need than what I just saw in the last few days? For example, if one were using PHP and the Toolkit calls, how many people can support that? There's an active community that Zend is nurturing, and I applaud that, but the numbers thing, especially lines of code of open source where lots is unusable now and forumns full of Windows and Linux people who know nothing about the iseries negates the numbers argument.

And of course that's not even your point, but the most frequent point from others.

rd



Mike Pavlak wrote:

Wow. Happy days!
It looks as if Ralph is articulating a lot of the initial commentary I
put forth in my initial statement about the history of Net.Data and PHP.
I can't say that I would argue with anything here. But, realize that
IBM had a choice a few years back and now invests probably 10 times the
resources in supporting PHP than Net.Data. (I do not have access to the
real numbers, so I can speculate based upon what I see.) As I stated
before, they have voted with their feet! I worry that IBM Rochester is
out of the innovation business. I worry that this consolidation of i
and p will result in anything positive for the community regarding our
beloved system. I would have been just as happy with IBM had they
resurrected Net.Data and infused R&D dollars on such frivolous tools
like an integrated IDE and greater support. It is an AWESOME solution.
Heck, they could have even called it Net.Websphere for all I care. But
with IBM continually pulling back from it, how can a developer in good
conscience invest in its future? Should we advocate that an RPG
developer embrace the logic cycle and S/36 environment simply because it
works so well? It is still supported in V6R1 but does that make it a
smart bet? I wish I had a crystal ball to tell what solutions will be
around in about 10 years. I am a big fan of PDM, but WDSC/RDi has so
much more to offer. Still I walk into i5 shops where the developers
only use PDM! I have even had a couple of customers ask us if we would
include an RPG editor in Zend Studio. The first time I heard the
question it sounded ludicrous. But as I got the question more and more
I started to consider it. Folks are just looking for something stable
that works. PDM fits the bill to a certain extent. But I digress.

To one point that Ralph made assuming I am interpreting it correctly,
the cross platform PHP company, Zend Technologies has, is and will
invest highly in the i5 space as we see it as strategic to the growth of
PHP in the Enterprise arena. I am curious how many folks at SUN can
even spell IBM i. Zend Core for i5/OS DOES provide the ability to
leverage the unique capabilities of the IBM i. There is no desire to
remove that and much discussion about how to enhance and improve it!
(Uh-oh...better go hide my pee-pee....) Also consider that PHP while it
can be calculated as being nearly the same age as Java on the street has
not spent nearly as much time on the platform as Java. RPG 40+ years,
Java 12+years, PHP 2+ years. Yet, in that 2+ years there has been
significant growth and 100% commitment to cross platform support for the
core language. (DB access is a slightly different animal). Java has a
toolkit, PHP has a toolkit. And the PHP toolkit is receiving R&D
dollars (That's as far as I'll go on that one!)
I was the development manager for a company that invested heavily (T&M)
in Net.data. We developed several applications using that technology.
Some things were great while others like the support network (size not
quality) and resources were frightening. I had developers going over my
head to the CIO when IBM pulled the forum down (Thank you again
Peter!!!) Then IBM pulling support away from every platform except the
iSeries (and later zSeries) damn near got me fired for choosing Net.Data
as a strategic solution. But kudos to IBM Rochester for keeping it
alive. With many loyal customers and a handful of ISV's that have
adopted it, IBM will continue support. New development is another
thing.
Resources can be interesting too. I have met more than a dozen PHP
developers who have come to the i5 as a result of this relationship.
These are true Linux bigots who have opened their mind to the
possibilities of the i5. One of them even wanted to learn RPG and I was
tutoring him and encouraged him to by Cozzi's latest book! Yes, you
heard it here folks: A PHP developer bought and RPG book! How many
developers have come to the i5 because of Net.data? This space can grow
organically. It will have to as we should not wait for IBM Marketing to
do it :-). OMG! What good can come from this!
As I discuss in many customer calls and public appearances I would NEVER
ask that someone abandon a technology that is working for them. Many
customers have made the move to Java or RPG-CGI or Net.Data or
something. And many of those customers have come to PHP. And still
others that have not. I am a BIG fan of "if it works, don't fix it!"
But, as we move forward, there should be a time to decide that there
might be a better tool for the job. I just hope that folks look at the
various solutions and judge for themselves. Consider what rhetoric
swirls around this list server and others and then get your hands dirty.
Make an informed decision, not just follow a belief because someone you
trust is touting or bashing one or the other.
Regards,

Mike




-----Original Message-----
From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Ralph Daugherty
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 12:24 PM
To: Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries
Subject: Re: [WEB400] Truly later thinking...Honey, grab me another beer

How old is PHP? About the same as Net.Data and Java, right? So the immediate response is, oh, they released OO capability in PHP. It's new.

What it is is that PHP was (and for many PHP apps, still is) a security nightmare. The original way of progamming PHP, and much of that vaunted open source code when one tosses out millions of lines of code numbers that is based on it, is now more than deprecated, anyone using it is braindead and deserves what happens to their site, this any PHP advice will tell you.

So fine, it was reworked because it was a security nightmare. And I'm supposed to be impressed because it's "new and improved" and Net.Data just works?

As for all that open source, it's not trivial to copy code from a sizable project and tweak for your own ends for a business. Almost all of the PHP code is simple variations on post and display (BB's, wiki's, etc.) There are a few CRM/ERP's, they're cited often, but to go in and figure out the infrastructure and borrow pieces of it to base something of your own on inscrutable code is about like going into an older RPG ERP and trying it.

Sure, there's lots of examples of code to look at, as far as something specific like how do I like at the environment variables or trying to figure out how do I do something here that I'm familiar with in RPG, but

I really don't see the open source providing any leverage for a serious business application.

Nathan has hit it on the head on so many ways here, simpler in this case

also leads to better performance as well as faster development, two wins

that are hard to get at the same time.

And the keeper is, when is modernization just a codeword for wannabe migration. Using the unique capabilities of the iseries is not in any other platforms's interest, and you won't find it in cross platform technologies.

rd




Nathan Andelin wrote:

From: "Haas, Matt
At this point, I don't know why anyone would want to start new
development in Net.Data.

Let me admit that the lack of traction is a valid concern. But that

could change quickly if IBM chose to commercialize it, or help establish
an open-source community around it. Like any product, it needs someone
promoting and supporting it.

If you just consider Net.Data architecture and features, there's a lot

going for it. It runs in the native virtual machine and offers an
exceptional interface with native language environments. Contrast that
with products that offer a migration path off the platform. A good
word-smith may characterize them as IBM i modernization tools, but
they're actually migration tools - a good way to kill a platform.

I'm impressed that Net.Data doesn't make a "project" out of Web

development. Contrast that with tools where the first thing you do is
to make a project, and set up about a dozen different directories for
your files. Then in order to create a new file within the project the
tool offers about 6 dozen wizards for creating it. Since the tool is
based on multi-tier architecture, and offers a migration path off the
platform, and implements numerous convoluted "standards", and attempts
to mitigate between disparate interfaces, you begin to lose site of the
desired result, and begin to focus on the mechanics of implementation.
When that's your view of Web development, you begin to believe that you
need the wizards and code generators, when what you really need are
simpler interfaces.

With Net.Data I'm impressed that you don't need to setup an entire

development and runtime environment on your PC. You don't need a
personal HTTP server, a personal virtual machine, a personal application
server, or 12 different editors integrated into 1 IDE. You don't need a
wizard to deploy your application to a server. You don't need to make a
"project" out of setting up or upgrading your development environment.
You don't need a beefy workstation. You can make incremental changes to
macros and immediately see the results. You don't need to redeploy your
entire project.

I like the fact that with Net.Data you're dealing directly with HTML,

CSS, and JavaScript rather than working with various tag languages that
generate server and client-side components that generate HTML, CSS, and
JavaScript, but do little to improve the user interface. Instead, they
lock you into less flexible interfaces.

Net.Data performance surprised me. In my last message I provided a

link to an inquiry screen which I implemented in both Net.Data and RPG,
and where client response times were essentially identical for both
versions.

Nathan.