RE: IBMRational WebDeveloper forWebsphere SoftwareVersion 6.0

Like I said, I do not think we will ever have to face these fees. It is 
sometimes worth acknowledging, however, that there are people willing to 
pay these fees for use of the exact same tools we are using, minus the 
iSeries functionality.

Mark

wdsci-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote on 11/05/2004 11:11:46 AM:

> I know anything close to that kind of fee for WDSCi would probably cause 
our 
> shop to stop to using it. It's a very hard business case when there's no 

> quantified studies showing the benefits of WDSCi and the product shows 
signs 
> of immaturity compared to ADTS tools. And it's an even harder sell for 
shops 
> like ours, where most developers are still using it to code traditional 
> CL/COBOL/RPG programs and making little use of the other tools. 
> 
> Kelly
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wdsci-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:wdsci-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Mark Phippard
> Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 9:57 AM
> To: Websphere Development Studio Client for iSeries
> Subject: RE: [WDSCI-L] IBMRational WebDeveloper forWebsphere
> SoftwareVersion 6.0
> 
> 
> Tell that to the people that have been paying $2000/user for WSSD, which 

> we get for free, and $5000/user for WSAD which we get for much less.
> 
> Mark
> 
> wdsci-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote on 11/05/2004 10:48:19 AM:
> 
> > Surely IBM would not try to add a license fee at this stage of the 
> studio's 
> > development. Problems due to the studio's immaturity (crashes, 
> installation 
> > problems, bugs, and slow performance are still too frequent) would 
make 
> the 
> > studio a hard sell if it carried an additional fee. I think the studio 

> needs 
> > to mature more before it can succeed as a separately licensed product. 

> And 
> > maybe by then it will be impressive enought that people don't mind 
> paying the fee.
> > 
> > Kelly
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: wdsci-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:wdsci-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Mark Phippard
> > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 9:28 AM
> > To: Websphere Development Studio Client for iSeries
> > Subject: RE: [WDSCI-L] IBM Rational WebDeveloper forWebsphere
> > SoftwareVersion 6.0
> > 
> > 
> > I worry a little about this too, because I bet whomever was 
responsibile 
> 
> > for making WDSC "free" had to pull some strings to do so.  With 
Rational 
> 
> > likely responsible for showing their own contribution to the IBM 
bottom 
> > line these "strings" could be cut and could go away. 
> > 
> > Here is why I do not think it will happen though:
> > 
> > 1)  I believe the iSeries people are committed to this and do what it 
> > takes to continue it.  The same thing happened to them with WebSphere 
> AS, 
> > and by adopting Tomcat in OS/400 as a response they showed the 
WebSphere 
> 
> > people they are serious.  Lo and behold, we get WAS Express in the 
next 
> > release.
> > 
> > 2)  IBM could always change the WDSC offering slightly.  For example, 
> WDSC 
> > could be based more on the Eclipse-base, instead of WSSD.  This would 
> > remove some of the tooling we have today but still give us the core of 

> > what we want.  There could then be a small upgrade fee to the full 
tools 
> 
> > and a larger fee for the advanced tools.
> > 
> > 3)  IBM recently contributed the majority of their web tools to 
> > Eclipse.org.  So in the near future you will be able to get 90-95% of 
> WSSD 
> > as a free Eclipse offering.  This makes #2 that much easier for the 
> > iSeries folks as a fallback option.
> > 
> > I actually think that WDSC might be a better product if IBM took this 
> > latter approach.  It is nice that the people that need the tools in 
WSSD 
> 
> > and WSAD get those tools as part of WDSC, but I think the underlying 
> > packaging involved in doing it that way somewhat handcuffs the WDSC 
> > developers in the way that they deliver the product.  They could 
> probably 
> > produce a cleaner offering if they were just in complete control of 
the 
> > packaging.
> > 
> > Mark
> > 
> > 
> > wdsci-l-bounces+markp=softlanding.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote on 11/05/2004 

> > 10:12:24 AM:
> > 
> > > With the introduction of Rational into the developers toolbox does
> > > anyone foresee IBM trying to make these development tools 
"additional
> > > charges" even if you have a compiler license?  I am just curious 
> because
> > > it would seem that the adoption of Rational products (which
> > > automatically trigger $$ in my mind) might mean IBM would start
> > > charging.  Hopefully it doesn't turn into the mess that happened 
with
> > > charging for WAS Express.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: wdsci-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:wdsci-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > 
> > > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 9:00 AM
> > > To: Websphere Development Studio Client for iSeries
> > > Subject: RE: [WDSCI-L] IBM Rational Web Developer forWebsphere
> > > SoftwareVersion 6.0
> > > 
> > > Correct, it is the same basic product lines with new branding. While 

> we
> > > are all tired of the constant name changes, a lot of us have 
> complained
> > > in the past that the "WebSphere" brand was used on too many products 

> and
> > > made things confusing.  So I do not really mind them using the
> > > "Rational" brand to apply to their development tools.  AFAIK, WDSC 
is
> > > going to remain WDSC for at least the next release.  I have not 
heard 
> of
> > > any plans to apply the Rational brand to it, although that would 
make
> > > some sense for consistency.
> > > 
> > > I imagine that more of the tools that came from Rational will start 
to
> > > make their way into the base offerings.  Rational still has their 
own
> > > packages based on Eclipse that focus on their modelling and testing
> > > tools. 
> > >  Perhaps more "lite" versions of some of these features will make 
> their
> > > way into the WSSD/WSAD tools?
> > > 
> > > When all is said and done, this will just be the Eclipse 3.x-based
> > > version of the same tools we have been using.
> > > 
> > > Mark
> > > 
> > > 
> > > wdsci-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote on 11/05/2004 10:07:01 AM:
> > > 
> > > > >From what I can tell from the screen shots it looks like the 
> Rational
> > > > brand will be applied to the WSSD/WSAD/WDSC line, as opposed to 
the 
> > > > Rational products replacing WebSphere Studio.  From what I've read 

> > > > (both from IBM and from other sources), the Rational products 
> weren't 
> > > > particularly productive.
> > > > 
> > > > Joe
> > > > 
> > > > > From: Mark Phippard
> > > > > 
> > > > > It will likely be the foundation for WDSC 6.0.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
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