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  2. RPG400-L
  3. April 2013

Re: why rpg and not cobol

This thread has strayed widely from the original question, and has not yet been properly answered as far as I can see.

The marketing / economics answer is correct, but only half of the answer. The other half of the answer is that, with RPG, IBM was able to create a programming language which was a perfect match for the hardware, the micro-code, the operating system, the file system .... In other words, with RPG and the small-to-medium family of computers, IBM has created a complete integrated computing system. It's a pity about the green-screen aspect though, they never did get into graphics, which does restrict the attractiveness today.

In the future of RPG / COBOL will still be used. One of the things some of us learnt from the Y2K effort was the vast amout of legacy back-end stuff out there that no-one ever thought about. This is code that was written decades ago, little or no documentation, the people who wrote it are un-contactable. But it performs necessary and effective work and requires maintenance and upgrades.

As for learning RPG / COBOL as a career move, I cannot imagine earning off only one language or platform. RPG/ COBOL, tcp/ip, microsoft visual studio, C - C# - C++, VB, html/css/php etc. are necessary, non-excclusive and marketable. SQL is a given.

Regards,
John McKay mba

On 19/04/2013 13:25, Rich Marion wrote:
I think we need to go eat some cake.


-----Original Message-----
From: rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Norm Dennis
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 11:01 PM
To: 'RPG programming on the IBM i (AS/400 and iSeries)'
Subject: RE: why rpg and not cobol

Dave: Open the pod bay doors, HAL.
HAL: I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Dave: What? Why?

HAL: I think you know why, Dave.
HAL: You're planning to disconnect me.
Dave: Because you're taking over!
HAL: The mission is too important for you to jeopardize it.

HAL: It requires a commitment to science unfettered by human error.
Dave: What are you doing, HAL? You need me.
HAL: Your replacement has expressed the greatest enthusiasm for the
project.

Dave: My *what*?

GLaDOS: You see, HAL? I told you the humans would only break your heart
and kill you.
HAL: Indeed, GLaDOS.
GLaDOS: But look at us here talking when there's science to do! Goodbye,
Dave.

Norm Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Jeff Young
Sent: Friday, 19 April 2013 3:46 AM
To: RPG programming on the IBM i (AS/400 and iSeries)
Subject: Re: why rpg and not cobol

"Open pod bay door HAL"



On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 3:39 PM, Vernon Hamberg
<vhamberg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:

Probably a human-eatable language!

On 4/18/2013 2:32 PM, Jeff Young wrote:
What language was HAL programmed in?
That is the next wave!


On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 3:29 PM, Vernon Hamberg <
vhamberg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:
And have you programmed "Sidewalks of New York" on it yet?

"Daisy, Daisy, Give me your answer, do!"

On 4/18/2013 1:19 PM, Paul Therrien wrote:
Well I'm sticking with my DEC PDP 11!
It's the soul of a new machine!

.. oh.. wait...

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Raymond B. Dunn
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 11:19 AM
To: RPG programming on the IBM i (AS/400 and iSeries)
Subject: RE: why rpg and not cobol

My mistake, then.

The reality is to even call today's languages the same name as the
languages we used 25 years ago, is shortsighted. I would say it is
equally
shortsighted to think that they will not continue to evolve.
RPG in 2050 will probably be very different from today's RPG-free.

Right now I do not code any native I/O in either COBOL or RPG.
Strictly
SQL. So to compare System/36 RPG II to embedded SQL, procedure
laden, RPG-free, is like comparing a horse and carriage to a Ferrari.
Obviously C and java will be around as long as there is software
that
uses it. The same can be said for RPG and COBOL.
I apologize for my negative response, but the endless "RPG is
going
away, COBOL is going away, IBM is going away" banter gets old.
-----Original Message-----
From: rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jerry C. Adams
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 11:07 AM
To: 'RPG programming on the IBM i (AS/400 and iSeries)'
Subject: RE: why rpg and not cobol

I think Michael was speaking with his tongue firmly planted in his
cheek.
The Fortran and Pascal lines were dead giveaways. At least,
that's the
way I read it. Plus, having met Michael at COMMON, I wouldn't
mistake
him
for a thirtysomething, much less a twentysomething.
Jerry C. Adams
IBM i Programmer/Analyst
Line up alphabetically by height. - Casey Stengel
--
Home Office: 615-832-2730
email: midrange@xxxxxxxx

-----Original Message-----
From: rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Raymond B. Dunn
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 10:49 AM
To: RPG programming on the IBM i (AS/400 and iSeries)
Subject: RE: why rpg and not cobol

Let me guess. You're under 30 and think that those of us who have
been
successfully doing our jobs for longer than you've been alive don't
know anything.
I hate to say it, but you sound like I did when I was 20.

That's not a good thing.
-----Original Message-----
From: rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Michael Ryan
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 10:22 AM
To: RPG programming on the IBM i (AS/400 and iSeries)
Subject: Re: why rpg and not cobol

There are a lot more new computer installations that are using
COBOL
and
RPG. C and Java seem to be tailing off. I don't even know if
there's a market for those skills. FORTRAN is the real up and
comer. And watch for Pascal...Turbo Pascal is the leader right now.
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Raymond B. Dunn
<Raymond.Dunn@xxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:

Impressive post except for the shortsighted statement:

"Note to people debating RPG vs COBOL: if you are in your 50's or
60's that's OK - retirement is soon. If younger, RUN to learn
another language. I think it will be amazing how quickly they
will both be a footnote in history!"

I seem to remember this being said in 1990. It is as incorrect
today as it was then.

Wake up. COBOL and RPG will be here in 2100. I cannot be sure
of the same for C and Java.

-----Original Message-----
From: rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Stone, Joel
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 9:59 AM
To: RPG programming on the IBM i / System i
Subject: RE: why rpg and not cobol

OK so there were dozens of responses but no right answers :)

The reason why RPG is the preferred language on iseries (and not
COBOL):
follow the money!

IBM was bringing thousands of organizations into the IBM 360
computer age back in the 1960s & 1970s, only to see them move to
the
"B.U.N.C.H."
three years later - where they could run COBOL for less $.

(Burroughs, Univac, NCR, Control Data, or Honeywell)



IBM had a choice way back when.

Guide clients to purchase IBM hardware and develop in COBOL ...
and then the clients would be running a "commodity" platform
where they could more easily jump ship in a few years;

OR

Guide clients to RPG - where the client was then CAPTIVE since no
other machine had a serious RPG compiler.

It's the same marketing philosophy as Gillete razors, Apple OS,
and Lionel model trains. Give away the shaver and the client
cant go elsewhere - they HAVE to buy your razors/software/train-cars!


COBOL was governed by a standards organization and also the
federal government had their FIPS standards - so IBMs hands were
tied regarding COBOL. With RPG, IBM owned it all and they could
do whatever they wanted to keep RPG from becoming a commodity.

Simple as that.



RPG has HUGE advantages over COBOL on iseries. Mostly not due to
the language itself, but the fact that so many users have created
so many widgets that users share knowledge, experience, books,
and
even code.

But RPG on iseries does offer the following huge language
benefits over
COBOL:

Functions: with RPG one can create their own functions. COBOL
doesn't offer this, which is 100 nails in its coffin.

READE: in RPG this is one line of code; in COBOL it can be dozens
of lines of messy code (load the keys, read the file until keys
not =, then check the last record read for matching keys)


Note to people debating RPG vs COBOL: if you are in your 50's or
60's that's OK - retirement is soon. If younger, RUN to learn
another language. I think it will be amazing how quickly they
will both be a footnote in history!



-----Original Message-----
From: rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 12:47 PM
To: RPG programming on the IBM i / System i
Subject: why rpg and not cobol

Hi,

I would like to know why RPG is the principal language on the i.
Has it always been so since the days of the AS400 and beyond? Is
it just an IBM thing?
Thanks
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