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  3. May 2013

RE: Recommendations for a newcomer?

I hate to admit it, but I still have boxes of 8" SS/SD diskettes.

-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Paul Nelson
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 3:32 PM
To: 'Midrange Systems Technical Discussion'
Subject: RE: Recommendations for a newcomer?

Availability of diskettes, and availability of people who can program them.
You and I are about the only ones who can remember how to do that. Well, maybe Jerry Adams, too.

:-))

Paul Nelson
Cell 708-670-6978
Office 512-392-2577
nelsonp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dan Kimmel
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 3:27 PM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: RE: Recommendations for a newcomer?

A 3741 is a lot faster than a 5250 for data entry. Why aren't you using one of those?

-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Paul Nelson
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 3:22 PM
To: 'Midrange Systems Technical Discussion'
Subject: RE: Recommendations for a newcomer?

Let me rephrase that. Timecards are manually entered at a job site at the rate of a thousand timecards a day. Each has to be viewed for correctness.
Then, they are processed in batch, and extensions done to calculate costs for both labor and burden. Once these are processed, the foremen get an audit report to view and approve or make corrections.

Once a week, everything gets swept up into the paycheck processing routines.

1. Data entry in a browser is not as fast as in 5250 or 3270. I don't care how many fingers you have.
2. I'd love to see you slap all that business logic into an SQL script, especially those special "Yeah, but" circumstances a union will throw at you.

Would you write an order entry system in SQL?

Paul Nelson
Cell 708-670-6978
Office 512-392-2577
nelsonp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dan Kimmel
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 3:09 PM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: RE: Recommendations for a newcomer?

Payroll time card processing is not a batch application. It's a user interface transaction far better done in HTML and some backend code like PHP or JSP with SQL interface.

-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Paul Nelson
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 3:07 PM
To: 'Midrange Systems Technical Discussion'
Subject: RE: Recommendations for a newcomer?

Sure it is. Now go write me a payroll timecard processing program in SQL.

Paul Nelson
Cell 708-670-6978
Office 512-392-2577
nelsonp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dan Kimmel
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 3:02 PM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: RE: Recommendations for a newcomer?

SQL

-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Paul Nelson
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 2:03 PM
To: 'Midrange Systems Technical Discussion'
Subject: RE: Recommendations for a newcomer?

"It is only the inertia of the last 25 years that keeps us using RPG"

Name a better batch transaction processor than RPG or COBOL, please.

Paul Nelson
Cell 708-670-6978
Office 512-392-2577
nelsonp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dan Kimmel
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 1:54 PM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: RE: Recommendations for a newcomer?

And how many developers worked how many dedicated man-months on these "new"
RPG projects? :-) I'm finding fewer and fewer developers in RPG shops spend their entire day/week/month writing RPG code. I work for an ISV. We have ONE (and it isn't me).

RPG is good for reading and writing to file objects. DSPF, PF, LF, CMNF.
DSPF (Display Files) are unique to 5250 green screen. No one is (or should
be) creating new 5250 applications. PF and LF (logical and physical database
files) are being replaced by embedded SQL, even in RPG programs. Embedded SQL is easier to use in C. CMNF (communications files) only ever had a use when we were doing BiSynch or SNA/SDLC communications over TokenRing. Nobody ever really used CMNF. 25 years ago, it was really cool that all these objects used the same interface. AS400 was the first system (discounting
S/38) to have an integrated development environment that provided tooling for the objects surrounded by RPG. SEU and PDM were light years ahead of anything else. You could position your cursor on a line of code and press F4 and it'd, by god, prompt you for what to enter! That's why huge amounts of new code development was done on the AS400 in the eighties and early nineties.

Development environments are so much more capable now! And user interfaces have advanced well beyond 5250 (which was, itself, ahead of anything else 25 years ago). It is only the inertia of the last 25 years that keeps us using RPG. So many people developed so much code that they and the code won't go away.

We really need new people to come onto this platform and show us old-timers how to develop quickly with fewer errors using the new languages, interfaces and tools.

-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Anderson, Kurt
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 1:16 PM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: RE: Recommendations for a newcomer?

"RPG and COBOL are dead. No new development in these languages is being done. Others on this list may disagree: I ask them to provide concrete examples of development being done beyond a few modules in either language."

Clay, I won't argue with Dan, but will instead give you my perspective of these languages (at least specifically CL & RPGLE).
1. IBM is updating these languages, so it's not as if the languages are not growing in terms of their capabilities.
2. I've done a lot of new development with RPGLE. For 'new' I do include rewriting a process in order to get some fundamental enhancements into the process, but there has definitely been 'new' development as well.

I don't recall if you said you're familiar with SQL, but I'd strongly suggest that whatever direction you decide to go, pick up SQL. Play with SQL. Even if you don't end up using SQL in programs, using SQL to investigate data issues is stellar.

I'm of the opinion that we (RPG/CL) are a niche market. This can be good (less competition for employment, potentially higher pay due to supply & demand), and it can be bad (shortage of available jobs in comparison with other languages).

One great step you've made already is entrance to this mailing list which can provide a wealth of knowledge.

-Kurt


-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Clay B Carley
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 10:06 AM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: Recommendations for a newcomer?

Being new to midrange systems, I'm attempting to pick up skills that will be useful for me in the future, in hopes to get a job working with them.
Reading articles that say things like COBOL is uncool, and RPG is worse isn't really giving me hope for a future working with a midrange system though.

Is it going to be worth my time to learn things like CL, COBOL, and RPG now?
Or are they fading away? It would be pretty sad to finally become proficient with these languages, only to find out that they are dead and replaced with <blah> instead.

What would you recommend a newcomer focus on (aside from system operations)?

Reading Rob's message from last week regarding "20 years of experience, versus one year of experience repeated 20 times" looks like a pretty good starting place I suppose. I'm really trying to look at where we're going to be in the years to come, not necessarily tomorrow.

Thanks for any suggestions,
Clay Carley
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