RE: George is Farr from where we want to be

First, I think you have to explain why you dont think Java is practical on

the i5. I agree that it is not.

Running it natively on the iSeries has a good handful of things that drive
me nuts.  The fact that each job needs it's own JVM is a big downside
(slow).  Even after the JVM has started it still doesn't perform as well as
it would in an app server like Tomcat on the iSeries (I have no scientific
tests for this, but don't think many would argue).
 

What is it that is preventing such a framework from evolving out of the ILE

procedure library vendor community?

I think that there are few vendors that have extensively used the latest
frameworks (i.e. MyFaces JSF) that also code in RPG.  I have demo'd Profound
Logics RPGsp product and they are as close I've seen to rapid web app
development through wizard like processes.  I think if somebody were to
write an event driven framework it would go a long way in the RPG community,
mostly because a lot of plumbing is written for you which means saved time
in the end.  First thing that comes to mind is call-backs could be used to
gain access to an entry point in an RPG program.

a) the geared down i5 does not have the power to run a multi level,

encapsulated interface framework.

I would disagree with this simply because I have seen *fair* performance out
of Tomcat on the iSeries. Granted it isn't as good as I get with my PC with
only me on it...  Imagine if the framework was entirely written in C and RPG
- how fast it could run.

Roughly because first you have to add class style objects to RPG, 

I wish we had user defined types (we kinda do with DS's), but I don't see
these on the horizon with RPG.  Though in an upcoming version of RPG you can
define a file in a sub proc and pass that file (including it's state) to
another RPG program (statement from George at Keynote).  I think we would
have better luck with building an API set around sessionized data similar to
how getenvvar is used and how you pull variables off the query string.
Nothing wrong with passing references to sessionized objects vs. by copy.

It think George Farr is doing everyone a favor by telling us that IBM is

focused elsewhere than RPG and i5/OS.  RPG and native i5/OS shops have to
work at moving their applications to where IBM is and not the other way
around.

I disagree.  IBM wants to move us to a language that is complex (Java) or a
language that hides complexities (EGL) but is still flawed/second-class
because it is built on complex Java infrastructure that has caused me no end
of frustration trying to get it all working together.  If Java came out with
a seamless/easy front end technology (i.e. something like JSF) and a solid
DAO layer (i.e. Hibernate) that were as seamless and reliable as what RPG
has, then I would have to change my statements about Java.  But that simply
isn't the case.  

The Java technologies that IBM is coming out with are VERY appealing as you
are writing your first round of 'test the water' apps.  The complexities
come more into view with new versions or when you get into more intense DB
access or screen processing needs.  One particular that drove me nuts when
using Hibernate was that it wouldn't allow me to do a join of two tables
unless the columns I was joining on had the same name.  I don't know if IBM
has the same problem, but I know they have similar concepts with what I
believe they call their Web Data Objects (or maybe they are called Service
Data Objects now?).  Another problem I had was with Apache's MyFaces and not
being able to easily download a PDF that was generated on the fly.  Because
of the JSF "cycle" (wow, even Java has a cycle) and it's flawed nature, it
was fairly cumbersome to download a generated file.  This has been fixed in
JSF 1.2 from what I understand, but guess what, the MyFaces team really
can't go outside of the JSF spec and fix stuff like that before the next
release because then they are not compliant, and if they DO fix stuff like
that then people will be coding against something that is not supported by
other JSF frameworks.  This is really where community development is flawed.
Lot's of waiting for parties to agree on a best approach.  We don't have
that with RPG other than they have to adhere to ILE environments and
collaborate with the OS team.

To end this semi-rant...
While in that session I was very close to asking the group whether they gave
a rip about platform independence.  I am guessing more than 90% aren't the
least concerned about it.  From what I gather that is one of the main
reasons George and his team are promoting Java and EGL.  The other prominent
reason for promoting Java is the amount of re-use you have because of the
rich code repositories out there. Can't argue with that fact - there are a
lot.  But what George needs to realize is that we (RPGers) are still not
interested in learning a new language that is more complicated and simply
doesn't run well natively on the iSeries.

Aaron Bartell
http://mowyourlawn.com


-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Steve Richter
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 8:35 PM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: Re: George is Farr from where we want to be

Aaron,

First, I think you have to explain why you dont think Java is practical on
the i5. I agree that it is not. My reasons are that java does not play well
with other code like ILE languages, it does not work well with system APIs,
the slow, slow, slow i5 CPU does not have enough umph to run java and you
cant do green screen programming with it.

 In your article you say you want IBM to provide an ILE native web
framework. Something that enables next generation web apps, which
CGIDEV2 does not.

What is it that is preventing such a framework from evolving out of the ILE
procedure library vendor community?  When you look at ASP.NET you see a
framework that any Windows .NET class vendor could provide.
If MSFT did not code and ship ASP.NET, other vendors would have done it.  In
our case, IBM is not providing the framework you are asking for. Why have
3rd party vendors not stepped forward?

My answer is that a) the geared down i5 does not have the power to run
a multi level, encapsulated interface framework.   b) ILE does not
support the garbage collection, pass by reference, inherited object model of
programming you need for a framework to provide the encapsulated interfaces
you would expect it to provide.

When you look at .NET you see what a massive effort is necesary to provide a
run time framework which integrates with all aspects of a platform and
distributed applications.  The integration of C++ into .NET is roughly
equivalent to the task of integrating ILE code as an equal citizen into the
JVM. Roughly because first you have to add class style objects to RPG, which
was not necessary with C++ because
C++ already has all the language constructs you see in Java and C#.
Once RPG can instantiate class objects you have to enable RPG to instantiate
those objects in the JVM so they can be garbage collected and passed by
reference to Java code.  And you have to enable the RPG ILE native stuff to
be walled off from the objects in the JVM. It is a big job and only a small
fraction of what MSFT did with .NET.

.NET was a bet the company initiative launched almost 10 yrs ago,
implemented by a lot of smart people who are in it for the long term.
The next release, .NET 3.0, has something called LINQ that integrates SQL
type syntax into .NET CLI compliant languages. LINQ requires all sorts of
language and framework features ( like generics ) that it has taken years
now to put in place.

IBM used to do this sort of thing when it created the 360 and 370 operating
systems.  Same with the S/38.  Even ILE has a lot to say for it in terms of
being an industry leading technology, achieved by a commendable long term
effort.

I guess you can argue that IBM still does have a long term vision ( for
system software ) and is willing to invest in it. The problem for us i5 folk
is IBM's efforts are focused on Java and Linux and whatever the latest Java
based framework is called.

It think George Farr is doing everyong a favor by telling us that IBM is
focused elsewhere than RPG and i5/OS.  RPG and native i5/OS shops have to
work at moving their applications to where IBM is and not the other way
around.

-Steve
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