Re: OT - Shutting down an RS/6000 ? -- MIDRANGE-L

So do you want IBM to ship AS/400s with a 64 MB NVIDIA GeForce and have them
make a GUI for it?

But again, if you are going to deter from the original command line
discussion, then you have to include Ops Nav and the other graphic
utilities.

Adam Lang
Systems Engineer
Rutgers Casualty Insurance Company
http://www.rutgersinsurance.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Rich" <james@eaerich.com>
To: <midrange-l@midrange.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 1:27 AM
Subject: RE: OT - Shutting down an RS/6000 ?


> On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Joe Pluta wrote:
>
> > > command prompt? No end-user in *any* operating system should ever
> > > have to deal with any command line shell, period. And so the issue
> > > of *user*-friendliness is, to me at least, moot.
> >
> > We were talking about how easy it is to find out what a command does,
and
> > what command to use to do something.  And while I guess you have no
contact
> > with end users who use command prompting as part of their production
> > environment, that's not the point.  Whether it's a user or a programmer
has
> > nothing to do with it, because in either case OS/400 ease of use beats
Unix
> > hands down.  No discussion, no argument, no quibble.  This isn't one of
> > those gray areas where even a narrow, biased interpretation of the
question
> > can somehow show Unix in a better light.  Unix commands are named
> > non-intuitively, the parameters are inconsistent and error prone, and
there
> > is no prompting.
>
> Well drag and drop and clicking on my little icons seems pretty easy and
> not too error prone.  Of course you could argue that the iSeries has the
> same thing via something like Ops Nav, but that is the PC with the easy
> interface, not the AS/400.  A PC is not needed to have a very simple user
> experience on unix.  I think Apple has proved that.  Remember, Mac OS X
> *is* unix.  So is it true that "OS/400 ease of use beats Unix hands down.
> No discussion, no argument, no quibble."?  No, it is not true (for
> probably most people on earth).  So what Hans said about users is
> important.  Who uses the shell on unix?  By and large it is gurus.
> Because they choose an interface that for them is better *even in terms on
> ease of use*.
>
> So we see that there is discussion, arguments, and quibbles on ease of use
> between AS/400 and unix.  It is certainly not preposterous to say that
> unix is easier to use than OS/400 for the reasons stated above.  But what
> about the argument that the OS/400 command line is easier to use than the
> unix command line?  Is there room for sensible people to disagree here?
>
> I believe there is (but you probably guessed I would already).  Let's look
> at at simple example.  To list all the files in /home/james in unix I
> would use:
>
> ls
>
> To list all the files in /home/james on OS/400 I would use:
>
> WRKLNK
>
> (assume that /home/james is my current directory for both examples)
>
> To me (and possibly only me) ls is easier than WRKLNK, if for no other
> reason than it is 4 characters shorter.  But beyond that, I have no idea
> why it is called WRKLNK (work with links?  what links?  I just want to see
> my files).  This is the same fallacy that unix commands are accused of
> (awk? what the crap is awk?).  I would have never guessed that to show a
> list of files I need to use WRKLNK.
>
> But now what if I want to change the order of my list of files?  Say I
> want to list the files, show that modified date on them, and reverse sort
> the list by that modified date?  It turns out I need to do this all the
> time.  On unix I use this:
>
> ls -ltr
>
> On OS/400 I am stuck.  I don't know how to do this.  I don't even think I
> can do this.  Maybe I can do WRKLNK to an outfile and then run a query on
> that outfile, but come on, using a query to list my files?  Why make it so
> hard?  Two steps instead of one?  Maybe it can be done, but if so then the
> fact that I don't know how to do it partly proves my point that unix
> commands can be easier than OS/400 commands.  You'd think that after
> working on OS/400 every day for 8 years I would have found it out.  And
> if it turns out that the kind of sorting and listing I'm talking about is
> right there on the F4 prompt then maybe F4 isn't all its cracked up to be.
> I may just be stupid but F4 is supposed to help stupid people, right?
>
> Now just because I can find two examples that to me show that unix
> commands are easier than OS/400 commands doesn't that I believe all unix
> commands are easier.  But it does show that the statement, "OS/400 ease of
> use beats Unix hands down.  No discussion, no argument, no quibble." is
> flat out wrong.  The unix command line is not always easier and neither is
> OS/400's.
>
> Now what does this say about either unix or OS/400 as a platform?  Almost
> nothing.  Because what Hans said is right:  your users should not rely on
> the command line.  Does a user need command line access to share files?
> No.  What about printing?  No.  Running apps?  No.  That they can use the
> command line is true, but they don't have to.  And since all of our users
> almost never touch the command (except when we walk them through it), who
> cares about the command line's usability when choosing a platform?  (Well
> I do, but I'm a developer, not a regular user)
>
> James Rich
>
> _______________________________________________
> This is the Midrange Systems Technical Discussion (MIDRANGE-L) mailing
list
> To post a message email: MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options,
> visit: http://lists.midrange.com/cgi-bin/listinfo/midrange-l
> or email: MIDRANGE-L-request@midrange.com
> Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives
> at http://archive.midrange.com/midrange-l.