RE: ODBC (was RE: Green screen - it's time is over ) -- MIDRANGE-L

I decided, for the fnu of it, to take a look at what ECS does, and then
re-read your post to see if it made any more sense in perspective.  In some
ways, it does, and some ways it doesn't.  ECS stores and retrieves
documents.  It's a document retrieval system.  No business logic whatsoever,
although the documents stored are created by business logic.  This
interesting dichotomy may be what leads you to some of your more interesting
statements.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brad Jensen
>
> I remember reading books on C and thinking, how clever to do it
> this way, but why do you want to confuse the people coming behind
> you who have to clean up the mess?

C was the first "portable" language for microprocessors.  I wrote code in
Intel 8080 assembly language and then moved to C with some of the very first
C compilers.  The productivity was very good, but we had some problems with
the overhead.  Often times an application would balloon up well over 2KB,
and that was unacceptable for a time when entire systems had to be burned
onto expensive 1KB ROMs for testing.


> And Java frankly looks like more of the same. Beans and jars and
> swishes (I can't remember the name of the latest cutesy thing, I
> assume it is another sort of library structure). Too much of that
> sort of thinking and you end up programming with half a mouse.

I program or have programmed in just about every major programming language
(and quite a few minor ones).  Each has its strengths and weaknesses.  To
pooh-pooh a language that you admittedly have no real knowledge about makes
a rather powerful statement about your decision-making process.


> I think of Java and C as wonderful things for writing middleware.
> Maybe.

Here you're actually correct.


> I understand that with Java you can write programs that will run
> on the HP 3000 and VAX and Data General, and all those other
> machines that just evaporated into the mists of time.

<laughing>  I'd love to see you run your VB program on an AS/400.  Or a
S/390.  Or a Solaris.  Or any Linux box.  Whereas Java will run on any of
the above, and many more.  The Microsoft world is fine for the desktop, but
Java runs in the backroom as well.  But we're not here to discuss languages.


> I've just started learning RPG/400 from a book. ( I know, now you
> call it something else.)  I don't intend to use it for development
> myself (I've got guys at the office who do that) but I wanted to
> have some understanding of it. I can see it started out as am
> assembler-style program generator, where you didn't have to write
> the basic cycle logic.

Or maybe we should discuss languages.  You properly stated the genesis of
RPG (which stands for Report Program Generator), over 20 years ago.  And
it's still going strong.  VB, has a history, too.  It came from BASIC, the
Beginner's All Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code.  Originally invented to be
a teaching tool before learning more powerful languages such as FORTRAN and
ALGOL, the first BASIC interpreter ran in about 4KB.  Speak not ill about
our ancestors, lest they come back to haunt you.


> We used to laugh, in the early days of the structured programming
> fad, about the implementation of the 'COME FROM' to replace the
> 'GO TO'. It looks like RPG has this designed in - you set an
> indicator and suddenly you aren't in Kansas anymore. Just eyescan
> a couple of thousand lines to find out where you end up, I guess.
> I won't ask if I am missing something, I am sure I am.

Yeah, you're missing a decade or two of programming advancements.  Before
you slam the language, you might want to take the time to learn the
language, including all of its structured programming techniques, its
integrated database access, it ability to interoperate with other languages,
its error handling, and any of a host of other things, not the least of
which is the fact that indicators are hardly used anymore.


> I love the LEAVE command. I heard that mentioned on this list and
> I thought -wow- I wonder if that means just wander off? I have had
> programs do that but I didn't think anybody would design it into
> the language.

Almost any structured programming text will discuss the ITER and LEAVE
opcodes.  They're very powerful, and required in systems of any complexity
that perform error checking.


> Is anybody writing new programs in RPG? Are they just maintenance
> programs and add-ons? Is anyone writing new systems in RPG? I
> can't imagine you are. I've seen another discussion group where
> they are using some tool to write CGI programs in RPG, and the
> arcane discussions they are having about that are astounding.

And here's where it gets interesting.  Exactly what sort of business logic
programming does Electronic Storage Corporation do?  I've looked over your
products, and I don't see anything there that requires a large degree of
business knowledge.  You certainly don't needs APICS certification to write
a document scanner.  Heck, you barely even need a database, so, sure, you
wouldn't use a language like RPG.  You'd be better off with something simple
like FoxPro, or, say, BASIC.  On the other hand, hundreds of business
applications, both packaged and custom, are written in and continue to be
written in RPG.


> I've got no idea if that is possible - or what would happen to the
> AS/400 if you had a hundred or five hundred copies of a
> fill-out-the-form program running - particularly if they start and
> stop.  I suppose you could start them up as you need them and
> leave them running until there has been no demand for that copy
> for x minutes.

No, you don't have the slightest idea.  In fact, a single AS/400 is more
than capable of running thousands of copies of the same program
simultaneously, something no Windows box can do.   Anyway, given your
focus - the idea that a Windows machine running Visual Basic to store and
manage documents is somehow comparable to as AS/400 running mission critical
online transaction applications - I can see that further discussion about
architecture is pretty much going to be futile.

But thank you for the opportunity to review my thoughts in an adversarial
environment.  It helps me focus my opinions and make sure that they have a
firm fundamental grounding.

Joe Pluta
www.plutabrothers.com