As I began in AS/400 Programming in 2000 I never had any intention to remain just coding POS application programs for Retail Manufacturing. It was always meant to be a stepping stone. What corporate America has done was to take that stepping stone away from the unemployed. Which made retraining on the job literally impossible.
----- Original Message -----
From: bestjobs<mailto:bestjobs1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 192
*** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this list!
*** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL
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Don't forget about supply and demand. As demand for Iseries skills wanes
(and it is lessening - undeniable fact), the money will continue to go down.
Of course importing more Iseries labor makes it worse as that increases the
supply for the lessening demand and makes no sense whatsoever. It IS taking
money from the Americans that are Iseries developers. Salaries/rates in IT
most definitely have gone up over the last couple of years - just not for
Iseries. In a few cases they have gone up dramatically (again - supply and
demand). Everyone here seems to be complaining about the supply side of
the equation. You can not forget about the demand side. It is a simple
fact guys (like it or not) - Iseries skills are just not as much in demand
as they once were and therefore you won't see any rapid increase in
rates/salaries. What is an Iseries guy to do about it? Move to where the
fewer jobs are just to find a job and be ready to have an ever harder time
finding work next time (not easy), retrain in a newer / more in demand skill
(definitely not easy because most companys won't give you the chance), or
change careers (not easy). Complaining about h1's taking your jobs won't
increase the demand for your skills (which is where the largest part of the
problem really is). I know these won't be popular thoughts - but they are
the cold hard facts. Supply and demand.
-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-jobs-bounces+bestjobs1=mindspring.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:midrange-jobs-bounces+bestjobs1=mindspring.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:midrange-jobs-bounces+bestjobs1=mindspring.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On
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To: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 192
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: FW: FW: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 187
(kabbott1@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:kabbott1@xxxxxxxxxx>)
2. Re: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 184 (Frank Marshall)
3. Re: FW: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 187 (Frank Marshall)
4. Re: FW: FW: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 187
(Joe Cunningham)
5. FW: FW: FW: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 187 (Joe
Pluta)
6. Re: FW: FW: FW: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 187
(Shadrach Scott)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
message: 1
date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:02:28 -0800
from: <kabbott1@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:kabbott1@xxxxxxxxxx>>
subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] FW: FW: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5,
Issue 187
LOL! Good wrap up Joe.
Any programmer who has changed jobs, for a similar position, between 2000
and now will tell you that salaries dropped precipitously after Y2K and have
continued to decline. I changed jobs 4 times because of layoffs since 2000.
My salary dropped each time except the most recent, 6 months ago. The most
recent job change was a 2% increase from the previous job. Nothing to shout
about, and I had to push hard to get that. I am now making rougly 30% less
than I did in 2000. Virtually every programmer I have spoken to has a
similar story. Anyone who believes that average programmer salaries haven't
dropped has their head in the sand, or somewhere other than firmly on their
shoulders.
I know Shadrach will come back and say that he changed jobs and his salary
hasn't decreased. I want to point out that I stated "for a similar
position". We're not talking about people changing jobs to become managers,
consultants, contractors, construction workers, etc.
Karl
---- Joe Pluta <joepluta@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:joepluta@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> *** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this list!
> *** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL
> *** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions in this
list.
>
>
> > From: Shadrach Scott [mailto:shadrachscott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >
> > The bigger and most undeniable fact is that outsourcing just
> > transfers wealth out of the
> > American middle class to outsourcing companies (and to a small
> > degree the
> > employees of those corporations) and to the primary shareholders of
> > multinational companies. It's a short term redistribution at
> > best, since it
> > is the disposable income of the American middle class that has
> > supported a
> > significant segment of the growth of the world's economy in the
> > first place.
> >
> > I have been looking at articles and statistics on the web this
> > evening and can not find a source that would back this comment up.
> > Can you point me to a source to back up your "undeniable fact".
>
> This part is simple, and there's nothing I can do to convince you if
> you don't see the obvious: any foreign programmer takes money from an
> American middle class worker. Typically even if that person can find
> another job, it pays less and has fewer benefits.
>
>
> > I am not finding the numbers that support your point. You claim it
> > is "simple math" but I don't find any numbers that even start to
> > support your claim.
>
> Shadrach, if you think the average American is better off today than
> two, three, five or ten years ago, then good for you. We can stop
> this conversation right now, because you live in a different universe,
> and it really doesn't matter what we discuss.
>
> You can quote all the government statistics you want. Remember, the
> government also says the CPI only went up 3% per year, yet three
> staples--gasoline, milk and natural gas--all have risen nearly 100% in
> the last couple of years. Health care premiums rose 35% between 2000
> and 2004 alone.
>
> I'm not going to argue with you anymore. If you think outsourcing is
> good, then please, go to your local Union hall and shout it to the
rafters.
>
> We'll send flowers.
>
> Joe
>
> --
> This is the Midrange Jobs: Postings & Discussion (MIDRANGE-JOBS)
> mailing list To post a message email: MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx> To
> subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options,
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>
> Don't forget to check the midrange.com jobs board at
>
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------------------------------
message: 2
date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:39:12 -0600
from: Frank Marshall <keesman36@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:keesman36@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 184
You right Joe
When Corporate executives outsource job, cut health benefits, bail on
pension plans or slash workers to boost stock value they bring up the "Bogey
Man": Globalization. They claim they are forced into these positions by
competition from overseas. However, in the same breath they fight any
attempts to curb some of the practices that cause unfair trade. It isn't
capitalism that is to blame it is how some executives game the system. Most
of this is a scam fortunately not everyone drank the kool aide.
Frank (retired programmer and lovin it.)
> From: joepluta@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:joepluta@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> To: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx>>
> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:14:12 -0600> Subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS]
> MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 184> > *** Please pay close
> attention when replying to a message on this list!> *** If you want
> the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL> *** Recruiters may
> advertise only permanent employment positions in this list.> > > >
> From: Alex Montalvo> > > > > > Let's face it the idea of capitalism
> has run it's course it only worked> > when other people were unaware
> they were being taken advantage of.> > > > Drink that in. Don't have
> to answer all at once.> > LOL!> > And on THAT note, it's definitely
> time to go. If you're suggesting that> some other economic system
> other than enlightened self-interest (the bulwark> of Adam Smith's
> pre-capitalist philosophies) is going to do better, then I> gotta
> scoot.> > Socialism, perhaps?> > No, the problem is with capitalism is
> not capitalism itself, but> multi-national cor
poratocracy and the 90-day stock market cycle which> undercuts the fabric
of competition. Just as the problem with democracy is> not democracy itself,
but instead the power of corporate lobbying which> we've seen so blatantly
exposed in the last year or so with the attempted> passage of so many
amnesty bills despite the clear disapproval of 80% of the> country.> >
Anyway, gotta run - it's getting political in here <grin>.> > Joe> > -- >
This is the Midrange Jobs: Postings & Discussion (MIDRANGE-JOBS) mailing
list> To post a message email: MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx>> To subscribe,
unsubscribe, or change list options,> visit:
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MIDRANGE-JOBS-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:MIDRANGE-JOBS-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx>.> > Don't forget to check the
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message: 3
date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:05:58 -0600
from: Frank Marshall <keesman36@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:keesman36@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] FW: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue
187
When Corporate executives outsource jobs, cut health benefits, bail on
pension plans or slash workers to boost stock value they bring up the "Bogey
Man": Globalization. They claim they are forced into these positions by
competition from overseas. However, in the same breath they fight any
attempts to curb some of the practices that cause unfair trade. Most of this
is a scam fortunately not everyone drank the kool aide.
> From: joepluta@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:joepluta@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> To: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx>>
> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:04:59 -0600> Subject: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] FW:
> MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 187> > *** Please pay close
> attention when replying to a message on this list!> *** If you want
> the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL> *** Recruiters may
> advertise only permanent employment positions in this list.> > > >
> From: Jon Paris> > > > If they were thinking this far ahead then how
> do you explain why they> > are all seeking soft degrees in the liberal
> arts arena? The kids are> > not _just_ abandoning Comp-Sci - they are
> abandoning _all_ science> > related programs. Enrollment is down in
> all of them. The threat of> > off-shoring doesn't explain that.> > > >
> Actually, I don't much care about the kids going to University. Those
> have> never been the primary source of programmers in the midrange
> market. They> may well be for the sexy career paths like game
> programming, but I've NEVER> met someone w
ho went to college to become an ERP programmer.> > I'm worried about the
technical colleges such as DeVry. Just recently,> DeVry was very gung ho
about a System i curriculum, but unfortunately a> tepid turnout from the
community may have turned them off. A lot of the> blame for that can be laid
directly at the feet of the business community> and the local user group,
but the overall cycle is still there. A kid> realizes he's not going to be a
surgeon, so the next best thing used to be> going to the local technical
college. If there's no System i curriculum> there, or if the industry sucks
in general, then there are no newbie> programmers.> > > > Anyway - this
debate is going nowhere as it does every time it occurs.> > Not true, we've
actually addressed some of the more serious issues,> especially the rampant
abuse of the visa system. The lack of new> programmers is only a small
portion of the issue. The bigger and most> undeniable fact is that
outsourcing just transfers weal th out of the> American middle class to
outsourcing companies (and to a small degree the> employees of those
corporations) and to the primary shareholders of> multinational companies.
It's a short term redistribution at best, since it> is the disposable income
of the American middle class that has supported a> significant segment of
the growth of the world's economy in the first place.> > It's simple math
that redistributing the wealth of some 300 million people> to over six
BILLION people while at the same time destroying the largest> consumer
market in the world is going to do nothing except raise the number> of
people in substandard living conditions.> > But hey, that's what happens
when common sense and globalism collide.> > Joe> > -- > This is the Midrange
Jobs: Postings & Discussion (MIDRANGE-JOBS) mailing list> To post a message
email: MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list
options,> visit:
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http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midr>
ange-jobs> or email: MIDRANGE-JOBS-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:MIDRANGE-JOBS-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx>.> > Don't forget to
check the midrange.com jobs board at
http://jobs.midrange.com<
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_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
message: 4
date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:54:42 -0800 (PST)
from: Joe Cunningham <cunninjoe@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:cunninjoe@xxxxxxxxx>>
subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] FW: FW: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5,
Issue 187
I'm with Shadrach. Replace capitalism with what? Bureaucrats? Also
cooking the CPI numbers would require such a giant conspiracy that it is
unfathomable. I have been a technician since 1965 and I've never felt I had
it made except for a short time when I had been in the business about 18
months, went to a job fair, got about 10 requests for visits to job sites.
I thought for a very short time that I must be brilliant but was soon rudely
awakened. The economy has had a very good 15 years except for a little blip
after Y2K. We are losing about 7 % of the jobs every year and gaining about
the same. I would love to see all corporate welfare eliminated and feel
that precipitates some of the really bad decisions because some of these
cash cow company are so hep on going to the latest technology (read
Microsoft) that they are willing to throw everything out for very marginal
benefits and nobody ever pays a price for these failures.
Of course it would only take another layoff to get me thinking about
unions, etc. and I sympathize with your sentiments if you are not working; I
really do. The big problem with Iseries now, in my opinion, is that the
young managers do not want IBM and procedural languages. Their friends are
not using it and they don't want to either. I have been in two shops where
they have made massive conversions from Iseries to Microsoft servers to such
chaos that one of them had to sell a division (actually give it away) and
the other is still a work in progress. Outsourcing was accelerated during
the boom of the late 90's and I believe it will run its course and the tide
is already turning.
Things got too hot in the 90's and there had to be a correction because
too many people got into the field. We had a medical doctor working in my
shop as an Access contract programmer because she could make more money and
work better hours - I am not making this up. I believe IT is still a high
demand profession and the college students must as well since IT is still
one of the leading majors for recent grads according to all the publications
that I see. I have to admit that I am surprised by that being the case.
I believe that things will cycle back around toward quality. In the
meantime, keep learning all you can.
Joe C.
kabbott1@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:kabbott1@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
*** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this list!
*** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL
*** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions in this
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LOL! Good wrap up Joe.
Any programmer who has changed jobs, for a similar position, between 2000
and now will tell you that salaries dropped precipitously after Y2K and have
continued to decline. I changed jobs 4 times because of layoffs since 2000.
My salary dropped each time except the most recent, 6 months ago. The most
recent job change was a 2% increase from the previous job. Nothing to shout
about, and I had to push hard to get that. I am now making rougly 30% less
than I did in 2000. Virtually every programmer I have spoken to has a
similar story. Anyone who believes that average programmer salaries haven't
dropped has their head in the sand, or somewhere other than firmly on their
shoulders.
I know Shadrach will come back and say that he changed jobs and his salary
hasn't decreased. I want to point out that I stated "for a similar
position". We're not talking about people changing jobs to become managers,
consultants, contractors, construction workers, etc.
Karl
---- Joe Pluta wrote:
> *** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this list!
> *** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL
> *** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions in this
list.
>
>
> > From: Shadrach Scott [mailto:shadrachscott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >
> > The bigger and most undeniable fact is that outsourcing just
> > transfers wealth out of the American middle class to outsourcing
> > companies (and to a small degree the employees of those
> > corporations) and to the primary shareholders of multinational
> > companies. It's a short term redistribution at best, since it is the
> > disposable income of the American middle class that has supported a
> > significant segment of the growth of the world's economy in the
> > first place.
> >
> > I have been looking at articles and statistics on the web this
> > evening and can not find a source that would back this comment up.
> > Can you point me to a source to back up your "undeniable fact".
>
> This part is simple, and there's nothing I can do to convince you if
> you don't see the obvious: any foreign programmer takes money from an
> American middle class worker. Typically even if that person can find
> another job, it pays less and has fewer benefits.
>
>
> > I am not finding the numbers that support your point. You claim it
> > is "simple math" but I don't find any numbers that even start to
> > support your claim.
>
> Shadrach, if you think the average American is better off today than
> two, three, five or ten years ago, then good for you. We can stop this
> conversation right now, because you live in a different universe, and
> it really doesn't matter what we discuss.
>
> You can quote all the government statistics you want. Remember, the
> government also says the CPI only went up 3% per year, yet three
> staples--gasoline, milk and natural gas--all have risen nearly 100% in
> the last couple of years. Health care premiums rose 35% between 2000
> and 2004 alone.
>
> I'm not going to argue with you anymore. If you think outsourcing is
> good, then please, go to your local Union hall and shout it to the
rafters.
>
> We'll send flowers.
>
> Joe
>
> --
> This is the Midrange Jobs: Postings & Discussion (MIDRANGE-JOBS)
> mailing list To post a message email: MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx> To
> subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options,
> visit:
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>
> Don't forget to check the midrange.com jobs board at
>
http://jobs.midrange.com<
http://jobs.midrange.com/>
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------------------------------
message: 5
date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 21:57:27 -0600
from: "Joe Pluta" <joepluta@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:joepluta@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
subject: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] FW: FW: FW: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5,
Issue 187
> From: Joe Cunningham
>
> I'm with Shadrach. Replace capitalism with what? Bureaucrats?
First off, other than Alex, who is talking about replacing capitalism?
Capitalism as an economic structure is like democracy as a political
structure: it's not that great, it's just better than anything else on the
planet.
> Also cooking the CPI numbers would require such a giant conspiracy
> that it is unfathomable.
Who said "conspiracy"? All I'm saying is that whatever the CPI and salary
numbers say, they don't match the reality of life. Costs have risen to the
point where a single-income family is nearly impossible. Fewer positions
exist, and yet visa programmers continue to encroach on the economy, and the
global economists would have more of them!
Insanity.
Joe
------------------------------
message: 6
date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:16:42 -0800
from: Shadrach Scott <shadrachscott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:shadrachscott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] FW: FW: FW: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol
5, Issue 187
Joe I hope you are enjoying the debate ..... I am enjoying it, and I have
read and looked at every fact sent. I especially enjoy when people like Karl
are willing to share real life. You are correct numbers are cold and there
is a human aspect to this debate and there are real people being affected by
it. Obviously there is a segment out there that is feeling real pain or at
least minor discomfort.
I enjoyed the article sjl sent from business week talking about engineering,
I read it 3 times. Mr Wadhwa presented some great information and his
conclusions are very interesting. He basic conclusion is India and China
still have a long way to go to catch up, but they are trying hard. The US is
doing better than people give us credit for but we can do better. I love the
final part of the article:
"DON'T RELAX. We could also be doing a lot more to encourage U.S.
companies to expand U.S.-based research, to provide ongoing
education and training for their employees, and to work more closely
with universities in commercializing research.
Bottom line: Let's be really worried about looming competition, but
let's focus on the right things?and make more effective of use of
our strengths. Because after all, Friedman is right, in the future
India and China may catch up to where we are today."
Joe rather than the protectionist society you keep advocating for we need
the competitive society Wadha talks about. Rather than protectionism we need
to encourage expansion, competition, more ongoing training...... and as I
obviously believe the more people who participate the more competition there
will be (even from china and
India) the better off we all will be. As those economies grow so will ours
and instead of the collapse your predict the world will see prosperity like
it never has before.
My final point is the technology field is very competitive, you can never
assume anything about your job or the product you sell. If you employer is
not providing ongoing training then you need to provide it for yourself. The
numbers tell us that real wages are growing so if your wage is shrinking
someone else's is growing and by your own admission the h-1b wages are not
the ones causing real wage growth.
Bring on the Insanity.
I'm done, not because it has not been fun but I don't think Joe's blood
pressure can take much more.
Shadrach
------------------------------
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