RE: Look Mom - No Application Servers

>As far as CM goes for PC type app development & RPG as well have you looked
into CVS-type CM packages?

CVS makes the development of RPG quite cumbersome compared to alternatives
like TurnOver, Aldon or MKS.  If I don't have my code in a source physical
file then I need to put it there before I can compile it.  That is the
biggest turn off for me and CVS/SVN.  Though I did see an interesting
article with using SVN coupled with WDSC iSeries Project that I am waiting
to try out (I think it was on the iSeries Network).

Tommy, do you currently use CVS for your RPG?

Aaron Bartell

-----Original Message-----
From: java400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:java400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Holden Tommy
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 8:03 AM
To: Java Programming on and around the iSeries / AS400
Subject: RE: Look Mom - No Application Servers

 <snip>
 Using RPG CGI as a stepping stone lets
them concentrate on that learning first, all the logic and database access
is exactly what they have been doing for 15 years. Then once that knowledge
is in place learn java and an entirely new development environment and maybe
the options in life cycle tools will have gotten better or IBM will have
built them into WDSC </snip>

RPG - CGI is a good starting point for some....however lots of RPG
programmers dabble on the 'net in our spare time for our own (sad....)
enjoyment (geez, maybe I am a geek??)  Ask around, personally if Java is too
big a leap for your shop chances are at least one person there has dealt
with PHP (which is very easy...especially if you know SQL...).
PHP like Java is not an "end-all, be-all" solution but it is another tool
that can be leveraged for you applications.  As far as CM goes for PC type
app development & RPG as well have you looked into CVS-type CM packages?
There maybe something out there that can fill the bill for little or
nothing.  RPG IS my livelyhood & paycheck skill set but I constantly have to
be doing something ( or go insane...if I'm not
already...) There's a lot of people that are versed in PHP, etc...it's just
something that takes doing a few times to get the gist of...

Just my .02 USD


Thanks,
Tommy Holden


-----Original Message-----
From: java400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:java400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Cunningham
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 7:34 AM
To: albartell@xxxxxxxxx; 'Java Programming on and around the iSeries /
AS400'
Subject: RE: Look Mom - No Application Servers

Aaron, you hit on a lot of the points we have been trying to deal with.
In the RPG world not only do we have the programming knowledge of RPG but we
also have all the tools to support RPG development on iSeries.
When it comes time for maintenance work (e.g. that 5 position field now
needs to be 8 and all the values are changing) we have tools to find every
application and every screen and every report that uses that field. And we
have the tools to checkout the source code and assign it to a developer so
no one else can modify the source code. When we look at java we don't see a
single tool set that will deal with java and rpg without some major
investment (one tool we saw was about $10,000 per developer).
 
The other issue that Joe touched on a little was being able to learn java. I
think everyone in my shop has the talent to learn java, it's an issue of how
much can one person learn at the same time and still be productive. I see
RPG CGI as a good option for dealing with this. Just moving from RPG to RPG
CGI still requires the programmer to learn HTML and all the things
associated with that (javascript, style sheets, browsers that don't all work
the same) and getting their head wrapped around stateless applications.
Using RPG CGI as a stepping stone lets them concentrate on that learning
first, all the logic and database access is exactly what they have been
doing for 15 years. Then once that knowledge is in place learn java and an
entirely new development environment and maybe the options in life cycle
tools will have gotten better or IBM will have built them into WDSC. 

>>> albartell@xxxxxxxxx 4/17/2006 7:26 AM >>>

You have a lot of good points Pete. I think the main reason many shops don't
want to go the Java (or PHP) route is because the introduction of a new
programming language is VERY expensive once all is said and done. When a new
programming language is introduced it is usually because guys like ourselves
found a solution (possibly open source) to get an application out the door
in short order where it would have taken twice to three times the work to do
the same in RPG - so a little time was saved on the front end with
Java/PHP/.NET.

The problem is now that the code needs to be change managed. Let's say for
the sake of argument that there are 5 production iSeries boxes that need the
new Java/PHP code. Let's also say that I have the first version out there
(installed manually) and have started to work on the next version. At this
point change management has to start and the question becomes: 

"Does my CMS package support the change management of Java/PHP?"

"Does my QA group know how to test Java/PHP?"

"Does my CMS package have the ability to do automated
distributions/installs?" 

"When my application breaks how many people need to be involved to debug it?
(i.e. J2EE front end is calling RPG business logic through stored
procedures. Both Java guys are out this week so we can't fix it until
Monday)"

"Do I need to add another conference to enter the picture and educate my
staff differently (i.e. JavaOne vs. RPGWorld.com/COMMON)"

"Do I need to buy/use different toolsets or learn how to install a new set
of plugins for Eclipse and then have my IT support staff take care of those
installs (i.e. Zend's editor or installing, php plugins for a base eclipse
install,or having to go the route of installing plugins for J2EE development
if not using WDSC)

I lived through such a challenge in a medium sized shop (25 or so
programmers). It can get messy/expensive/cumbersome fast when new languages
are introduced.  A shop just needs to make sure it is a well thought out
decision and ensure it fits with their long-term IT strategy and not a short
term "I found it free online" fix.

My $.02,
Aaron Bartell
http://mowyourlawn.com/blog

-----Original Message-----
From: java400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:java400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Pete Helgren
Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 5:18 PM
To: Java Programming on and around the iSeries / AS400
Subject: Re: Look Mom - No Application Servers

When I get the chance, I'll do a little more "educating" of myself on JIT
compilers.  I thought, and stand corrected now, that Java was "slower"
because of the nature of the JVM, and abstraction from the "core" of the O/S
and machine interface. So much to learn....

Sounds like you have had much more experience bringing RPG folks
successfully over to Java than has been my experience.  I certainly enjoy
moving between the RPG/Java/PHP worlds and you probably won't find a bigger
advocate for 21st century skills development in my company, but my
experience has been that making that jump is pretty hard for most RPG
programmers for the variety of reasons that have been debated on this list.

Pain points?  What I meant was that there were still things that cannot be
done in RPG when it comes to equivalents to what may be available in a
language like Java or PHP.  I can see a need for a web services provider for
RPG.  Maybe a messaging provider that was JMS compliant (perhaps there is
such a thing).  As I try stuff in RPG I find that I need something that is
available already in Java.  So I either wrap a Java class or just write it
in Java.  I am OK with that, but some folks would be stuck, so that can
cause some "pain".

And, when I talk about these thing I guess I am reflecting on what would
allow an RPG programmer to stay in the "comfort zone" but still be able to
write applications that are equivalent to enterprise web applications in the
Java world.  Why would that even be necessary, especially when so many open
source and commercial applications already exist that fill that need? 
Well,
the Java/PHP worlds clearly overlap on tools and API's.  There are PHP
programmers who want to write only in PHP and thus create functional analogs
to existing Java tools and apps.  There are Java programmers who only want
to write in Java and thus will write Java tools and apps even though they
exist in the PHP, C or other programming worlds.  You can see that
duplication in C++, Perl and in dozens of other languages. I don't see why
RPG should be excluded from that "club".  If there are folks who want to
build RPG tools and apps, even though those tools and applications may exist
in another language, then more power to them.  It is not inconsistent with
other languages in the marketplace.

Me, I would rather make the "small investment" of learning something new,
but not everyone has the inclination, the time or the freedom.

Pete


Joe Pluta wrote:

>>From: Pete Helgren
>>
>>I wasn't aware that "JSPs eventually compile down to machine code." 
I 
>>assumed that JSP compiled to servlets which ran in a JVM which meant

>>it was still "interpreted" to some extent.
>>    
>>
>
>Do a little Googling on "Hot Spot Compiler" or "JIT Compiler".  It's 
>pretty cool stuff, and a great reason why certain logic, especially 
>stable code that gets used over and over (I call these static solution

>sets), really are well suited for Java.
>
>
>  
>
>>Agreed that Java has many more tools and ready made API's.  But, I 
>>wouldn't use that as the sole rationale for not developing RPG 
>>equivalents.
>>    
>>
>
>It seems easier to learn to use a couple of APIs rather than spend the

>money to reinvent the wheel.  That's almost like rewriting OS/400 
>system APIs because the API interface is complex.
>
>
>  
>
>>There are some "pain points" that I think could be addressed in RPG 
>>that would encourage more application modernization and would give
RPG 
>>programmers a more comfortable environment to grow from.
>>    
>>
>
>I'm not sure what this paragraph means.  Could you give me an
example?
>
>
>  
>
>>Not everyone enjoys jumping into Java, PHP, and other non-RPG web 
>>technologies.  The success of the System i platform, is, to some 
>>extent, still tied to RPG programmers so I'll continue to pursue
tools 
>>that pull them into the 21st century.
>>    
>>
>
>The success of the IBM midrange is completely tied to its ability to 
>integrate many different technologies.  RPG is one, and happens to be

>my favorite language.  At the same time, by making a small investment

>in learning a simple Java framework, you can make your RPG programmers

>much more productive.  They never have to worry about the UI at all; 
>instead, they just write business logic.
>
>Really, there are very few situations anymore where you can justify an

>RPG-CGI approach.  A small one- or two-person shop with zero training

>budget is probably one such place; few others come to mind.  If your
IT 
>shop doesn't have the skill set to learn the 1000 or lines of Java 
>required to create a web application environment, I can't see how you

>can possibly have the skill set to rewrite something like SOAP in RPG.
 
>It's just not possible.
>
>Joe
>
>  
>
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