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Jeff, Thanks for your explanation. It puts the raging debate into perspective for me. ---------------------------------------------------- This mailbox protected from junk email by MailFrontier Desktop from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com -----Original Message----- From: java400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:java400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of furgalj@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 9:03 PM To: java400-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Fitzle Gary wrote: >This is just a point of curiosity on my part. What category would the >following scenario fall under,inheretance, extension? Can anyone give >me an example of how this would be accomplished in OO and/or procedural? > >You have an object called a fitzle. It has three properties. 1. It can >hold data. 2. It can have data written to it. 3. It can have its data >read.... OK, at the risk of embarrassing myself, I'll take a stab at this. First, the 3 "properties" that you mention aren't really what I would call properties. They are just common operations that many kinds of data structures are able to do. >You want to use this fitzle object in several ways but you need a few >additional properties for each. First, you want it to be usable for >displaying data. You also want to use it to format data being printed. >Thirdly, you want to organize data in this fitzle object in a particular >sequence. >So for all three you feel you need to add the properties "type of file", >"device type", "record format". The kinds of things you are describing are again, not properties. They are uses of the information contained in or managed by the fitzle. Rather than inheritance or extension, these uses are now called patterns. Patterns came from architecture, and I mean buildings, gardens, and plazas, not software design. The architect Christopher Alexander has been exploring patterns for at least 30 years. To be brief, Alexander studied structure and spaces, and the way we interact with them. He found that there were certain uses of buildings and their spaces that always seemed to work well. Things like having multiple light sources, furniture groupings away from traffic areas, etc. He called these common uses patterns. At some point in the late '80's or very early '90's, some folks here in Illinois (U of I, Naperville Bell Labs), and a few other places, realized that this same approach could work with best practices in software development. Based on surveys and interviews with quite a few large scale development projects, a book was written. It was the now classic, "Design Patterns: Elements of Reusable Object-Oriented Software," by Gamma, Helm, Johnson, & Vlissides. I'm sorry if I'm going over old ground for you, but from your question I thought some of this was in order. The basic concept here is to leave your fitzle alone and adapt a set of standard usage objects around it. Displaying fitzle's information, either on a terminal or a printer, shouldn't change much of anything. Sun shows how to do this with their Java Swing package. A video display and a printer are both just different types of devices. You perform the same operations on each. This is how you achieve re-use. The fitzle should never have to know where or how its attributes are being displayed. Do you want to sequence a fitzle's data? Fine, leave it alone. Just create a standard collection object, such as a list or a tree, filled with fitzle's repeating attributes. Then sort however you want using a Comparable object, or change the keys to the tree. Now you have reused not only the same old fitzle, but a standard Java Collection class, and a Display and a Printer device context. In terms of patterns that were used, treating visual display and printing the same way is called the Facade pattern. Performing repetitive work with collections of attributes would be an example of the Iterator pattern. PROCEDURAL PROGRAMMING ALERT! Now on to a topic that seems to be giving everyone fits. Let me sit over the tub of cold water with my clown face on and say that JAVA IS A PROCEDURAL LANGUAGE. Most OO languages are, such as Smalltalk and C++. An example of a non-procedural language would be SQL, and (takes a deep breath) RPG when dealing with the report cycle. That's right, RPG is less procedural than Java! The OO aspects of Java and Smalltalk are all procedural. They just take advantage of a large symbol space within the compiler, and hidden pointers. When Java uses OO features like inheritance and polymorphism, it is just passing the work up or down the object hierarchy. The work is still executed procedurally, it's just that the decision as to who will execute the work is deferred until run-time. Better yet. These decisions can often be made without "if" statements, via the use of virtual pointers. Sometimes you even get a bit of a speed-up do to less branch logic. Fire away everybody. I think I just saw a troll under a toadstool in my backyard -). But really, I am serious. I hope this helped. If you haven't already seen it, take a look at the Design Patterns book, or one of the many rewrites for more modern languages (it was aimed at C++ programmers). _________________________________________________________________ Jeff Furgal / MIMIX User Interface Product Architect / Lakeview Technology furgalj@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx / 630-282-8360 LAKEVIEW TECHNOLOGY CONFIDENTIAL This e-mail may contain SECRET, PRIVILEGED AND/OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended only for the use of the addressee. If you are not the addressee, or the person responsible for delivering it to the person addressed, you may not copy or deliver this to anyone else. 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