Re: Strategic Java Usage -- JAVA400-L

Hi Paul,

thanks for the flowers. just wondering, that you statements don't get more 
excitement....

<snip>
> blue....  My thoughts on the RPG versus Java and SQL discussions....

In my opinion this are three very diffrent things

RPG: de facto standard for application development on as400 and nowhere else.
Java: de facto standard for open source components to develop applications
SQL: defacto standard for database access

My one and only topic in this debate is: make it simple and if you add 
complexity, you must have a benefit. If you use RPG, normaly you don't need 
java, if you use java, you won't need rpg (in the same application); mixing 
it up, you must have a benefit and my opinion here did not change, this only 
might happen, if you really have rpg components ready for plug in to your 
java application.

>
> #1  Object Orientation (OO)
>
<snip>
>  Analized
> deeeply, most software development is the same behavior with differnt
> databases,  develop a framework that allows generic treatment of these
> common tasks and we'd have it made.  The challenge for AS400 programming
> shops is getting the skill and experience to develop their reusabable
> component infrastructure.  Discussing this very problem, a knowledgeable OO
> co-worker told me, "The problem with this OO stuff, is that people don't
> even realize how powerful it is until they've worked with it for 2 or 3
> years."  The light at the end of the tunnel is that components and
> frameworks are emerging that lessens the need for the new Java programmer
> to understand OO design.

I would totally agree with your statement here ant that is one of the problems 
I see with a mixed up approach. Writing the business logiic in a procedural 
language prevents from the usage of most of these Frameworks and it slows 
down the process of the programmers migration from procedurel to OO in most 
cases.

>
> #2  Platform independence   (Portability)

<snip>

> exactly the same regardless of the Database!  People often argue that this
> portability comes at the cost of not taking advantages of unique platform
> capabilities; the truth is that platform optimization can still take place

There is no need to change the platform to run an application, but the 
possibility to do so, makes the hardware cheaper to you and forces the 
producer of the hardware to speed up his JVM and his SQL engine to stay 
competetive.

<snip>
> *  For reasons not 100% clear to me.. the AS/400 Java performance seems to
> stink.  I've had and helped 3 clients move their apps to Windows and see
> the performance improve dramatically.  My understanding of why is:  a)  The
> AS400 JVM goes through an extra step of "byte code verification"  for
> security reasons   b)  in terms of processor speed and RAM, Java is very
> speed and RAM hungry,  I've watched while a "desktop Windows" running at 3
> GHZ with 2GB of RAM runs circles around a decent size AS400.  Rochester,
> better circle the wagons here..  Bad story and I know you are working on
> it..

I tend to b) . Java applications have the complete runtime only once in the 
JVM and the classes are very small, that's very diffrent to ILE applications, 
having the runtime in every program. Today its no problem to make the 
complete JVM and the complete application resident in memory and at this 
point only processor speed limits the speed of the application server. The 
cheaper the memory is and the highre the GHZ, the better.

My advice? 

think about it and makeup the strategy of your own!

Dieter Bender

> .     Java has industry wide adoption and related development.  This means 
> that
> you can go out to www.almostWhereEverYouWant.org and find help, source
> code, and products related to Java.  RPG can't compete at this scope.
> .     Skills:  Not many college students coming out with RPG... Java of 
> course.
> At current levels, most of us AS400 bigots will be golfing in Florida
> within the next several years.  If you are a manager/CTO.  you care about
> this plus you go with what you know which sadly becomes less and less
> AS/400.  We have all battled with Big Blue marketing machine but it has
> turned its check at AS/400 specific marketing and investment.
> .     Rochester is investiging in Java/WebSphere and SQL not DDS and base
> RPG.  Where cheap, they incorporate native support in DDS and RPG...  Makes
> sense why Query/400 is dying compared to SQL?  RPG is not getting
> significant investment...  IBM says, how can we reduce costs..  Deliver
> software for all machines from the same code base....
>
> My advice:
>
> I have many additional thoughts and experiences but people including myself
> have very short attention spans so I'll stop at this point:
>
> a)    I'll share my experiences and thoughts in future writings if anyone
> cares b)      Rochester:  Make this stuff easier for the beginner.. Don't make
> them struggle for hours to figure out their CLASSPath... Oh. is that case
> sensitive?  Should I have written that on the command line or put it in my
> .profile file?
> c)    Don't underestimate SQL.   It can do a lot at a lot faster rate than
> most people know.
> d)    Java is powerful but has a learning curve.  Once you master it.. Look
> out.. Almost like a pilot figuring out a F18 versus the Cessna 152 that
> they are used to.  It takes longer but the potential is light years apart. 
> Want to engage in a dog fight?
> e)    Use Java and SQL until you find that it doesn't perform well enough.
> When you hit that consider AS400 program calls to RPG.   RPG has been
> optimized for 20+ years while Java is still pretty new.   Implement
> business rules as close to the Database as you can.  The advantage is that
> your business rules are enforced regardless of the interface.. SQL, JDBC,
> DFU, RPG, ODBC, etc.  They all drive via the Database.
>
>
> System.exit(1);  // :^)
>
>
>
> Paul Holm
> Senior Web Architect
> PlanetJ Corp.
> Phone: 760-432-0600, Cell: 760-415-8830
> WOW, Web Applications In Under 5 Minutes
> http://www.gotWebData.net
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: java400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:java400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of
> java400-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 10:00 AM
> To: java400-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: JAVA400-L Digest, Vol 2, Issue 95
>
>
>
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-- 
mfG

Dieter Bender


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