RE: FW: Java Vs RPG on iSeries -- JAVA400-L

Joe, you are one of my heroes, but I'm going to get a bit "contentious,"
all in the name of edification.

On Wednesday, 09/18/2002 at 01:15 EST, "Joe Pluta"
<joepluta@PlutaBrothers.com> wrote:
> > From: Blair Wyman
> >
> > On Wednesday, 09/18/2002 at 09:42 EST, "Joe Pluta"
> > <joepluta@PlutaBrothers.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > So, if you want to say that Java is faster than RPG, you must prove
it.
> >
> > ...but if you are saying that RPG is faster, no proof is required:
>
> Actually, I've run numerous comparisons of Java, SQL and RLA over the
years,
> and Java has lost soundly in every one.

You miss my point: if "proving it" is good for the Dieter, it's good for
the Joe...  No?  ;-)

> Been awhile since I did one,
> though, so perhaps it's time to revisit it.  However, are you suggesting
> that Java is as fast as RPG and native I/O for database access?

I think it depends on the database.  The SPECjbb2000 benchmark, on our
highest-end 32-way iSeries machines, processes a coupla hundred thousand DB
operations per second.

That's pretty good, I think (...and until fairly recently was the world
record).

Now, RPG applications can't even play in this particular space, since
SPECjbb2000 is Java-specific (and leverages very wide multi-threading,
among other Java niceties).

But, to be fair, SPECjbb2000 is not a true "business application" -- it
just plays one on TV.  :-)

> > For the insides of a business, RPG and DDS are the awesome 1-2
> > punch behind
> > the best character-based interface in existance (e.g. "green-screen").
> >
> > However, if you want to put an 'e-' in front of your business, Java is
the
> > modern language to learn.
>
> Blair, the original post had to do with writing Java applications that
would
> mimic exiting RPG legacy applications.  All my comments were based on
that
> statement.

C'mon Joe, that's a bit revisionist, eh?

While the correspondent did ask about "replacing" RPG, you said, "Java is
not the right tool for business application development."  I take issue
with that blanket statement, and am here to say so.

(I also think the idea of gradually replacing RPG logic with Java code has
some merit, as well, particularly when long-term maintenance issues are
considered.  But that's a different discussion...)

> I agree that Java is the proper language for the UI middleware required
for
> web applications, but I still haven't seen a Java-based iSeries
application
> that can compare to RPG and native DB2/400 access for business logic.

Maybe Java doesn't compete in raw DB performance -- maybe it does -- but
there's a lot more to "business logic" than just DB accesses.

> I will once again post my yardstick:
>
> Show me an MRP generation over a 10,000,000 record database that comes
> within, say, 50% of the performance of the equivalent program in RPG.

Show me the RPG program that plots full-color JPEG visualizations of trends
in the MRP data, and we're even.

Not fair?  Why not?  Isn't data visualization a valid requirement for a
"business application"?

OK, hyperbole aside: we can compare our yardsticks all day, but in the end
we must admit that neither is an accurate encapsulation of everything a
"business application" really is.

> At
> that time, Java will have come of age for business logic.  The last time
I
> published benchmarks, Java was nowhere close - heck, embedded SQL didn't
> even run as fast, so I know Java wouldn't if it used JDBC.  And my RLA
> benchmarks didn't show a lot of promise, either.  Times may have changed,
> but it's up to the challenger to provide the proof, I think.

I do not know any MRP generation algorithms in detail -- I suspect they are
domain-specific and necessarily heuristic -- but I'd bet a cup of coffee
that MRP generation has inherent parallelisms that Java threads could be
applied to.  If so, and I can get N processors cooperating on the MRP
generation problem, I'll eventually get the edge over any single-threaded
approach.

Java lets us think in different ways...  in parallel ways...  in
"connected" ways...

Thanks for the stimulating discussion.

-blair

Blair Wyman -- iSeries JVM -- (507) 253-2891
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It is a sobering thought that when Mozart was my age,
he had been dead for two years." -- Tom Lehrer