Re: COBOL400-L Digest, Vol 5, Issue 8 -- COBOL400-L

I run a predomiately COBOL (some RPG) development shop in the
Washington, DC area. Despite the fact that my intro to programming
professor told me COBOL was a dead language in 1974, I have made a
living working in it since 1984. We still do new development in COBOL
on the AS400. In recent years, we have begun to do interactive
development in RPG just because it is easier to find RPG developers for
the iSeries. For maintainable batch processing that virtually documents
itself, you can't beat COBOL.

Having said that, I do not think COBOL is a way to get started in the
industry today. Procedural languages seem to be going away but I would
never consider building my core business processes in a GUI language
designed for website creation.

John Arnold
(301) 354-2939

-----Original Message-----
From: cobol400-l-bounces+jarnold=fedmedinc.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:cobol400-l-bounces+jarnold=fedmedinc.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of cobol400-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 1:00 PM
To: cobol400-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: COBOL400-L Digest, Vol 5, Issue 8

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Learning COBOL (R Bruce Hoffman)
2. Re: Learning COBOL (Lora)
3. Re: Learning COBOL (Jim Essinger)
4. Re: Learning COBOL (Alan-)
5. Re: Learning COBOL (Zangare Basil)
6. Re: Learning COBOL (Kelly Cookson)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

message: 1
date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 14:37:28 -0400
from: R Bruce Hoffman <bruce.hoffman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
subject: Re: [COBOL400-L] Learning COBOL

Well, the lack of responses should tell you something...

Far be it from me to discourage you, but even the Federal Government has
declared all their COBOL systems as "unmaintainable" and have resorted
to replacing them with off-the-shelf software. For example, SAMMS
(COBOL, custom, mainframe) is being phased out in place of SAP (yes,
that SAP, and don't even get me started...) for procurement... as I
type. It's taken them almost 10 years to do it, but it's almost done.

So, your best bet, IMHO, would be to find an employer willing to hire
and train you in COBOL. If COBOL is important to them, and you are
willing and eager enough, that would be enough to get you hired in most
of the COBOL shops I deal with today. If you have some other language
experience, then so much the better.

Unfortunately, I don't know of any colleges teaching COBOL any longer.
As for self-training, unless the pricing has changed dramatically,
Fujitsu's COBOL compiler can set you back $20K-30K. Not exactly a
"hobbiest" or "home use" price. And CICS? I only know of that running in
Mainframe and a few iSeries shops.

And lastly, don't stop with COBOL. Learn at least two or three
programming languages. There is nobody on the planet, that I have given
that advice to, that has regretted taking it. Especially AS400 COBOL
programmers... ;-) but that applies equally to RPG programmers that I
taught COBOL to.

loravara@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

Good Evening,

I am eager to learn COBOL, JCL, TSO, CICS and all of the other
minutiae that go along with programming on an IBM mainframe. Does
anyone know if any college or university anywhere in the U.S.
(preferably near Denver) offers courses in such areas? Failing that,
does anyone have advice on how to proceed, how to learn the skills
that would be marketable to an employer without the backing of a
university? What, if anything, would prompt an employer to accept a

self-trained programmer?

Thanks for any advice you can offer. If this isn't the right list for

this, I apologize; if you feel you have information but this is an
off-topic question, please reply privately. I began my COBOL studies
with a mentor who said I had the mind of a programmer. Between his
lessons and lots of time with books, I've actually written some useful

COBOL, and I can write basic JCL and use TSO fairly well. BUT CICS is

a mystery, and I know there's a lot more to cover in all areas.

Thanks in advance.

Lora

---

---

No good deed goes unpunished,
No act of charity goes unresented

Eleka nahmen nahmen
Ah tum ah tum eleka nahmen
Eleka nahmen nahmen
Ah tum ah tum eleka nahmen

------------------------------

message: 2
date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:16:16 -0600
from: "Lora" <loravara@xxxxxxxxxxx>
subject: Re: [COBOL400-L] Learning COBOL

Hi,

Actually, we do use all of those things, including CICS for our
mainframe screens. I think, due to the limited programmer resources we
have, I might be able to transfer into the department if, and only if, I
can get some solid training.

What other programming languages would you recommend as valuable for the
next decade or three?

-----Original Message-----
From: cobol400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:cobol400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of R Bruce Hoffman
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 12:37 PM
To: COBOL Programming on the iSeries/AS400
Subject: Re: [COBOL400-L] Learning COBOL

Well, the lack of responses should tell you something...

Far be it from me to discourage you, but even the Federal Government has
declared all their COBOL systems as "unmaintainable" and have resorted
to replacing them with off-the-shelf software. For example, SAMMS
(COBOL, custom, mainframe) is being phased out in place of SAP (yes,
that SAP, and don't even get me started...) for procurement... as I
type. It's taken them almost 10 years to do it, but it's almost done.

So, your best bet, IMHO, would be to find an employer willing to hire
and train you in COBOL. If COBOL is important to them, and you are
willing and eager enough, that would be enough to get you hired in most
of the COBOL shops I deal with today. If you have some other language
experience, then so much the better.

Unfortunately, I don't know of any colleges teaching COBOL any longer.
As for self-training, unless the pricing has changed dramatically,
Fujitsu's COBOL compiler can set you back $20K-30K. Not exactly a
"hobbiest" or "home use" price. And CICS? I only know of that running in
Mainframe and a few iSeries shops.

And lastly, don't stop with COBOL. Learn at least two or three
programming languages. There is nobody on the planet, that I have given
that advice to, that has regretted taking it. Especially AS400 COBOL
programmers... ;-) but that applies equally to RPG programmers that I
taught COBOL to.

loravara@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

Good Evening,

I am eager to learn COBOL, JCL, TSO, CICS and all of the other
minutiae that go along with programming on an IBM mainframe. Does
anyone know if any college or university anywhere in the U.S.
(preferably near Denver) offers courses in such areas? Failing that,
does anyone have advice on how to proceed, how to learn the skills
that would be marketable to an employer without the backing of a
university? What, if anything, would prompt an employer to accept a

self-trained programmer?

Thanks for any advice you can offer. If this isn't the right list for

this, I apologize; if you feel you have information but this is an
off-topic question, please reply privately. I began my COBOL studies
with a mentor who said I had the mind of a programmer. Between his
lessons and lots of time with books, I've actually written some useful

COBOL, and I can write basic JCL and use TSO fairly well. BUT CICS is

a mystery, and I know there's a lot more to cover in all areas.

Thanks in advance.

Lora

---

---

No good deed goes unpunished,
No act of charity goes unresented

Eleka nahmen nahmen
Ah tum ah tum eleka nahmen
Eleka nahmen nahmen
Ah tum ah tum eleka nahmen

Good Evening,

I am eager to learn COBOL, JCL, TSO, CICS and all of the other
minutiae that go along with programming on an IBM mainframe. Does
anyone know if any college or university anywhere in the U.S.
(preferably near Denver) offers courses in such areas? Failing that,
does anyone have advice on how to proceed, how to learn the skills
that would be marketable to an employer without the backing of a
university? What, if anything, would prompt an employer to accept a

self-trained programmer?

Thanks for any advice you can offer. If this isn't the right list for

this, I apologize; if you feel you have information but this is an
off-topic question, please reply privately. I began my COBOL studies
with a mentor who said I had the mind of a programmer. Between his
lessons and lots of time with books, I've actually written some useful

COBOL, and I can write basic JCL and use TSO fairly well. BUT CICS is

a mystery, and I know there's a lot more to cover in all areas.

Thanks in advance.

Lora

---

---

No good deed goes unpunished,
No act of charity goes unresented

Eleka nahmen nahmen
Ah tum ah tum eleka nahmen
Eleka nahmen nahmen
Ah tum ah tum eleka nahmen
--
This is the COBOL Programming on the iSeries/AS400 (COBOL400-L)
mailing list To post a message email: COBOL400-L@xxxxxxxxxxxx To
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--
Jim Essinger
Senior Programmer/Analyst
GCO Servicing Corp.
6905 Highway 95
PO Box 1000
Fruitland ID 83619-1000
208-452-9475 (Voice)
208-452-5848 (Fax)

--

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immediately.

------------------------------

message: 4
date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 23:07:22 -0400
from: Alan- <steelville@xxxxxxxxxxx>
subject: Re: [COBOL400-L] Learning COBOL

I'll echo Bruce's comments.

Another programmer at work (doing RPG like the rest of us) recently had
an assignment doing COBOL on an RS/6000, imagine that, and they were
interfacing with Oracle using SQL, and he said Oracle has all these
weird rules that lay a bunch of gotchas in the road...

It's still out there, I've worked it, and stay subscribed to this list,
but the world is changing...

Alan

------------------------------

message: 5
date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 10:50:28 -0400
from: "Zangare Basil" <bzangare@xxxxxxxxx>
subject: Re: [COBOL400-L] Learning COBOL

As much as I like COBOL, learning other languages is essential. Which
ones is not an easy answer. It seems that when a new technology with a
new language comes along we are bombarded with marketing to jump on the
bandwagon.

You need to do research to see what languages are in greater use in the
region of the world where you live. The classifieds are a good resource
for this as are recruiters who specialize in IT placements. You don't
want to invest a lot of time and money retooling yourself only to find
out that you rode the tail end of the wave. Sometimes the big push for
newer technologies is by whoever owns the copyright for the product.
SAP is a good example of a nickel-and-diming you to death product. It's
one of the biggest ERP products, but not the best, they only tell you
they are.

Bottom line is look at languages and technologies that are established
and in wide use, but not too old that they are nearing to the end of
their lifecycle. COBOL and RPG have survived because they are the
oldest and they work. These languages also have evolved over the years
to keep up with newer methods and technologies. During Y2K it was
discovered that almost 70% of the existing code worldwide was written in
COBOL. Companies aren't anxious to throw out what may have taken them
30+ years to develop for a new product that might take them several
years to get back up to the same level of functionality.

You probably have to teach yourself COBOL, there are many new books
still being written, but don't limit yourself to it.

Basil Zangare

P.S. I apologize for the rambling rhetoric...Long live COBOL.

-----Original Message-----
From: cobol400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:cobol400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Lora
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 7:16 PM
To: 'COBOL Programming on the iSeries/AS400'
Subject: Re: [COBOL400-L] Learning COBOL

Hi,

Actually, we do use all of those things, including CICS for our
mainframe screens. I think, due to the limited programmer resources we
have, I might be able to transfer into the department if, and only if, I
can get some solid training.

What other programming languages would you recommend as valuable for the
next decade or three?

-----Original Message-----
From: cobol400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:cobol400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of R Bruce Hoffman
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 12:37 PM
To: COBOL Programming on the iSeries/AS400
Subject: Re: [COBOL400-L] Learning COBOL

Well, the lack of responses should tell you something...

Far be it from me to discourage you, but even the Federal Government has
declared all their COBOL systems as "unmaintainable" and have resorted
to replacing them with off-the-shelf software. For example, SAMMS
(COBOL, custom, mainframe) is being phased out in place of SAP (yes,
that SAP, and don't even get me started...) for procurement... as I
type. It's taken them almost 10 years to do it, but it's almost done.

So, your best bet, IMHO, would be to find an employer willing to hire
and train you in COBOL. If COBOL is important to them, and you are
willing and eager enough, that would be enough to get you hired in most
of the COBOL shops I deal with today. If you have some other language
experience, then so much the better.

Unfortunately, I don't know of any colleges teaching COBOL any longer.
As for self-training, unless the pricing has changed dramatically,
Fujitsu's COBOL compiler can set you back $20K-30K. Not exactly a
"hobbiest" or "home use" price. And CICS? I only know of that running in
Mainframe and a few iSeries shops.

And lastly, don't stop with COBOL. Learn at least two or three
programming languages. There is nobody on the planet, that I have given
that advice to, that has regretted taking it. Especially AS400 COBOL
programmers... ;-) but that applies equally to RPG programmers that I
taught COBOL to.

loravara@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

Good Evening,

I am eager to learn COBOL, JCL, TSO, CICS and all of the other
minutiae that go along with programming on an IBM mainframe. Does
anyone know if any college or university anywhere in the U.S.
(preferably near Denver) offers courses in such areas? Failing that,
does anyone have advice on how to proceed, how to learn the skills
that would be marketable to an employer without the backing of a
university? What, if anything, would prompt an employer to accept a

self-trained programmer?

Thanks for any advice you can offer. If this isn't the right list for

this, I apologize; if you feel you have information but this is an
off-topic question, please reply privately. I began my COBOL studies
with a mentor who said I had the mind of a programmer. Between his
lessons and lots of time with books, I've actually written some useful

COBOL, and I can write basic JCL and use TSO fairly well. BUT CICS is

a mystery, and I know there's a lot more to cover in all areas.

Thanks in advance.

Lora

---

---

No good deed goes unpunished,
No act of charity goes unresented

Eleka nahmen nahmen
Ah tum ah tum eleka nahmen
Eleka nahmen nahmen
Ah tum ah tum eleka nahmen

--
This is the COBOL Programming on the iSeries/AS400 (COBOL400-L) mailing
list To post a message email: COBOL400-L@xxxxxxxxxxxx To subscribe,
unsubscribe, or change list options,
visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/cobol400-l
or email: COBOL400-L-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx Before posting, please take a
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--
This is the COBOL Programming on the iSeries/AS400 (COBOL400-L) mailing
list To post a message email: COBOL400-L@xxxxxxxxxxxx To subscribe,
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------------------------------

message: 6
date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 10:15:38 -0500
from: "Kelly Cookson" <KCookson@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
subject: Re: [COBOL400-L] Learning COBOL

Some colleges offer AS/400 or iSeries programs. For example, I attended
a two-year AS/400 program at a local junior college that taught COBOL,
RPG, CL, Java, WebSphere development environment, and general business
courses. IBM works with colleges around the country to set these
programs up. You'll have to look at your local colleges and junior
colleges to see what they offer. You might contact IBM to get a listing
of such programs if you don't mind relocating for the eductation. My
understanding is these programs are shrinking in number.

I also believe IBM still makes COBOL training materials for the iSeries.
You can find COBOL manuals at the infocenter:

http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/iseries/v5r4/index.jsp

Also, there are ATS training materials, which you can order from IBM for
a cost.

http://www.ibmuser.com/train/dsfolder/acb2ds.htm

The ATS materials require you have access to an iSeries server and an
administrator willing to set up the training materials on that server.
It might be something you could convince a college professor to help you
set up as a special study course.

If none of your local colleges is willing or able to help you out, maybe
you could find a business that uses the iSeries and propose an
internship. You could learn what you want to learn. They could get some
free help and increase their local hiring pool.

Finally, if you search online, you can find training services. Here are
two examples:

www.bpgtraining.com/cobol.html

www.coboltrainingbysysed.us

I know nothing about the links above. I'm just offering them as
examples. You should shop around to find what's best for you.

Kelly

------------------------------