RE: /free MOVEA ?

MOVEA is an interesting bird. I've avoided it since the early 1990s.
Not that it's a bad thing, just that I've used *ALL'xx' to do similar
stuff where needed.

Bob Cozzi
cozzi@rpgiv.com
Visit the on-line  Midrange  Developer  forum at: http://www.rpgiv.com


> -----Original Message-----
> From: rpg400-l-admin@midrange.com [mailto:rpg400-l-admin@midrange.com]
On
> Behalf Of The TrekTeam
> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 8:51 AM
> To: rpg400-l@midrange.com
> Subject: /free MOVEA ?
>
> Everybody is concentrating on the MOVE and MOVEL but what /free BIF(s)
or Op
> Code(s) could possibly replace MOVEA?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bartell, Aaron L. (TC)" <ALBartell@taylorcorp.com>
> To: <rpg400-l@midrange.com>
> Sent: February 27, 2002 9:02 AM
> Subject: RE: MOVE opcode in freeform (was Strange behavior w/%editc)
>
>
> > >Since the intermixing of free and fixed calcs looks so gawd-awful
> horrible,
> > no one should even consider using free-form calcs unless they are
prepared
> > to write whole new procedures or modules in free-form style.
> >
> > I was hoping you would say this because I wanted to ask why you(IBM)
> didn't
> > just create a new specification code like Z or something instead of
having
> > to start and end your code with compiler directives(/FREE and
/END-FREE)?
> >
> > I also agree that you shouldn't code both free and column-like
coding in
> the
> > same program.
> >
> > Aaron Bartell
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: boldt@ca.ibm.com [mailto:boldt@ca.ibm.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 8:51 AM
> > To: rpg400-l@midrange.com
> > Subject: Re: MOVE opcode in freeform (was Strange behavior w/%editc)
> >
> >
> > Darn, another digest just rolled in while I was writing
> > this, and so some of my points are again redundant!  I
> > promise, this will be my last post for the morning!
> >
> > Bob wrote:
> > >I think the bigger question is not even if a language that supports
both
> > >free format AND fixed format useful, but rather, is the programmer
that
> > >uses both free format and fixed format doing the right thing. In
that, I
> > >can see your point. Mixing a MOVEL with all that free-format code
isn't
> > >"cool".
> > >
> > >But to be honest, I have yet to see one example of free-format RPG
IV
> > >code posted to this list that has been written in a way that is
similar
> > >to code written by people that write applications with free-format
> > >languages for a living (not as a hobby). So perhaps we should
continue
> > >using traditional RPG IV syntax (which includes the good old MOVE
> > >opcode) until we get a bit more experience or until is become more
> > >refined.
> >
> > You know Bob, I DO tend to agree with you more often than
> > you might think.  I understand fully your concerns about
> > free-form calcs, and to a large extent, much of the talk
> > about free-form calcs is indeed hype.  (Perhaps even from
> > us!)  Since the intermixing of free and fixed calcs looks
> > so gawd-awful horrible, no one should even consider using
> > free-form calcs unless they are prepared to write whole new
> > procedures or modules in free-form style.  Although I do
> > prefer coding in /free style, and I would like to see more
> > /free code out there, I'm not sure I agree with the large-
> > scale conversion of existing fixed-form calcs.
> >
> > Maybe you were right that RPG programmers weren't ready
> > for free-form.  But then, when would they be?  Perhaps
> > the problem was that expectations were too high?  I don't
> > think any one of us expected the overnight conversion of
> > all existing calc code.  Maybe some small percentage of
> > new V5R1 code will be written using /free.  Maybe that
> > percentage will rise as time goes on.  Unlike every
> > other enhancement we've done, this one has relatively
> > little practical importance in its first release.  It will
> > likely become more important over time as programmers warm
> > up to it and learn how to use it.
> >
> > If anything, I think /free is a really profound statement
> > from us that we believe programmers will still be using
> > RPG many years from now.  In a sense, /free is more useful
> > as a statement of IBM's commitment to the language, rather
> > than as a useful function.
> >
> > >On the other hand, since we have 6 or more ways to do the ADD
operation
> > >in RPG, why not just include a new free-format opcode named MOVE
and
> > >MOVEL?
> > >
> > >/free
> > >   movel  src  target
> > >/end-free
> > >
> > >Oh crap! I just wrote free-format, and I told Hans I would never do
> > >that! ;)
> >
> > That's not valid free-form calc code anyways, so it doesn't
> > count, OK?  ;-)
> >
> > As I pointed out in my previous note, we purposely did not
> > support all calcs in /free for the very reason that we
> > should not have lots of ways to code something.  If, and
> > this is a big IF, all new RPG code is written using /free,
> > then the point is moot - there would be fewer alternatives
> > to choose from.
> >
> > >Actually, Joe, Hans is not your enemy. The enemy is us as a group,
we
> > >RPG programmers who do not clearly articulate our views.  I think
rather
> > >than say "I demand feature X in RPG" we need to say something like:
> > >"Feature X is valuable to me because A, B, C, D... and this is how
I
> > >think it should be implemented."  And then let the smart compiler
> > >writing figure out how it should be realistically implemented.
> >
> > I agree.  Often we see requests that we should add some
> > particular functionality where the request is worded in
> > terms of some specific syntax.  What we try to do is extract
> > the real requirement and then try to determine the best way
> > to meet that requirement.  That's not always easy, and it
> > might not always be obvious how some enhancement meets a
> > particular requirement.
> >
> > Basically, we prefer adding "enabling" enhancements, rather
> > than enhancements that directly meet some specific need.  For
> > example, procedures "enable" a lot of functionality.  For
> > many things that programmers want to do, we would prefer
> > that programmers write procedures to perform the desired
> > tasks.  We had hoped that there would by now be a goodly
> > selection of procedures and modules commonly available
> > written by RPG programmers for the benefit of other RPG
> > programmers.  Robust publically available function libraries
> > is a prominent feature of many other currently popular
> > programming languages, such as C++, Python, Perl, and Java,
> > and is a big reason for the success of those languages.
> >
> > I know someone will pipe up and point out some web page or
> > another with publically available RPG code.  But often,
> > they're just touted as "demonstration" code.  The biggest
> > problem is that there's no common repository of the code
> > that's available.  And there's little sense of community
> > with respect to improving the quality of publically
> > available code (as there is with other languages).  At any
> > rate, the amount and quality of publically available RPG
> > code just doesn't compare to what's out there for other
> > languages.  Just look at www.cpan.org to see how the Perl
> > community deals with library packages.
> >
> > Cheers!  Hans
> >
> > Hans Boldt, ILE RPG Development, IBM Toronto Lab, boldt@ca.ibm.com
> >
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