RE: Using % type functions/using RPG IV

Colin,

In the context of John's post on the value of petitioning those 3rd party
vendors still stuck updating code originally written in the 70's, I stand by
my opinion.

Just to clarify, remember that I said that the vendors don't give a rat's
ass about the people who have to support and maintain the product, the
_programmers_.  They don't care that I (and every other programmer in the
world) think their code is mangled piece of crap.  They don't care that I
have to drill down through 50 subroutines to find the function that I need
to modify.  They don't care that I get eye strain looking at code that makes
it difficult to see that certain statements are commented out.  Yada, yada,
yada.

No.  The 3rd party vendors sell to the CEOs of the world.  And so I wonder
whether John's idea of petitioning to get packages rewritten in RPG-IV would
be better done from the demand-side of the equation.  That means that,
somehow, we must communicate to the decision-makers the importance of
including the condition of the source code as a factor to consider in buying
3rd party packages.  And then proving to them that there is a real cost
advantage to modifying newer, structured code over modifying ancient,
monstrous spaghetti code.  It means that MIS would have to be _legitimately_
involved in the decision making process (you'd be surprised) and that MIS
managers must involve experienced programmers in reviewing vendors' source
code.  

When pigs fly?

Sigh...

- Dan Bale

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Williams [mailto:Williamsc@technocrats.co.uk]
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2000 11:24 AM
To: 'RPG400-L@midrange.com'
Subject: RE: Using % type functions/using RPG IV


Do you not think you may be generalising there a little bit. 
Most of the package vendors spend there money on giving their customers
what they want eg enhanced functionality and interfacing to new
technologies.
Im not sure that they get many requests from customers for complete
rewrites of their code, because the customers development staff think
the
coding style is out of date.

If you have business critical applications running at multiple client
sites, that work today, are you prepared to risk their wrath by
introducing more errors, rewriting code that is proven and works. im not
convinced. To do something like that requires a lot of support.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bale, Dan [mailto:DBale@TFSA.Textron.com]
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2000 3:45 PM
To: 'RPG400-L@midrange.com'
Subject: RE: Using % type functions/using RPG IV


John,

One problem.  The JBA's of the world don't give a rat's ass 
about the people
who have to support and maintain the product.  After all, they 
don't sell it
to the programmers.  Heck, at that level, they don't even sell 
it to the MIS
department.  They sell it to the CEO's.

My gosh!  If management had any sense of the nightmares brought 
on by the
convoluted code in these million dollar packages...  Well, .... 
well, well,
they _still_ wouldn't give a damn.

So you want to start a "Mass mailing" to the worst 3rd party 
vendors?  IMH(but jaded)O, you'd be wasting your time.  Sorry
for being so blunt, but...

- Dan Bale

-----Original Message-----
From: John P Carr [mailto:jpcarr@tredegar.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 3:37 PM
To: RPG400-L
Subject: RE: Using % type functions/using RPG IV


""but there  are some big-name software packages out there that 
are sticking
to their
70's roots. ""


Why not start a "Mass" mailing to the worst 3rd party vendors 
petitioning
them 
to use new RPGIV design paradigms??   

Maybe send them a sample of their own code,  and one written "Better"  
using RPGIV and sign it as concerned customers?

Raise the visibility of their  @#$%   code.    One of the 
hardest parts of 
trying to get shops to use RPGIV is the argument that they 
"Still" have to 
maintain  RPGIII vendor code.   

Tell the vendors that they are *NOT helping their customers with their 
products.

kinda vigilante I know,   but it's like trying to move a battleship with
these guys.

Well just a thought.
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