RE: The IBM iSeries word from FOSE...

Charles,

Unfortunately not.  That was for our company.  Now, maybe when we revisit
it in a few years and logic prevails we can be a success story.  Actually,
if someone higher up ever sees that I'm sure I'd be ripped a new one......





                                                                           
             "Wilt, Charles"                                               
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Mike,

I don't suppose that study is on the net somewhere??  I'd love to have a
copy.

Charles Wilt
iSeries Systems Administrator / Developer
Mitsubishi Electric Automotive America
ph: 513-573-4343
fax: 513-398-1121


> -----Original Message-----
> From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of
> Mike.Crump@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 4:29 PM
> To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
> Subject: RE: The IBM iSeries word from FOSE...
>
>
>
> Joe Pluta <joepluta@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote on 04/08/2005
> 02:08:52 PM:
>
> > > From: Mike.Crump@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > > 1.)  I haven't seen any recently quantified and current number
> > comparing
> > > the two....We track our iSeries systems and do well 99.97
> or better.
> > And
> > > this is with a complex and mixed environment.  But I'd feel better
> > being
> > > able to point to someone's black and white number
> regarding WINTEL.
> >
> > And who are you going to trust regarding those numbers?  Especially
> > since the issue is so dependent on the type of load, as you
> mentioned.
>
> Very true.  I just hate to say that without being able to back it up.
> Either with personal experience or with somebody's data.
> Without those we
> are in the world of opinions....
>
>
> >
> > > 2.)  In a lot of customer environments they probably have good up
> > times.
> > > Like ours for example, we run a fair number of WINTEL
> servers (even 10
> > > inboard).  Now, of course, each system is effectively running one
> > > application only and in some cases these systems are only
> providing
> > > rudimentary services and are not full application systems.  But we
> > have
> > > relatively few problems with our systems with regards to downtime.
> >
> > This cracks me up... "Sure, 15 dedicated servers give us as
> much uptime
> > as the iSeries."  Well, my guess is the cost of 15 servers
> could also
> > get you a nice iSeries.
>
> Agreed, but it just goes to a certain attitude.  'Hey we do not have a
> downtime problem with our PC servers.'  It's an extremely shortsighted
> attitude but it's out there.
>
>
> >
> > > 3.)  While it is a true cost of ownership item a lot of
> people tend to
> > > say,
> > > hey if it's not cash I don't treat it the same.  Not that
> I'd agree
> > with
> > > it...but lately I've even been seeing that kind of mentality creep
> > into
> > > our
> > > environment.  Not cash going out, the concern level is less.
> >
> > That's an education issue: how many servers do you have?  How many
> > people?  How many hours do they spend updating those
> machines?  TCO is
> > definitely money going out.  But if your management don't understand
> > that, it's time to find a new job, because that company is
> tanking SOON.
> >
>
> You aren't telling me anything I don't already know.... :-)
>
>
> > > 4.)  And last but not least, I am fully convinced that a
> lot of WINTEL
> > > people are completely comfortable with living with downtime and
> > security
> > > issues.  I'm not saying it's right but I think there are a lot of
> > people
> > > who accept mediocrity.   Our WINTEL based portal and some
> of our plant
> > > floor systems rely on SQL server.  Two years ago we had
> to shut them
> > all
> > > down due to SQL Server virus problems.  24 hours for some while
> > systems
> > > were patched.  Move forward 12 months later we have our CFO saying
> > that
> > > our
> > > SAP platform has to be SQL Server......the same one that
> was shutdown
> > for
> > > 24 hours......If that had been one of my systems shut down for 24
> > hours
> > > I'd
> > > be hearing that outage as a reason to replace the system
> for at least
> > the
> > > next five years...........
> >
> > This is why I hate Bill Gates.  His philosophy of
> delivering cheap crap
> > until there is no competition has single-handedly reduced
> the state of
> > software development and lowered consumer expectations to
> rock bottom.
>
> Well, you can hate him but in some ways you have to admire
> it.  It works.
> Put it out, make it easy to start, cheap to start, and wait a
> few years
> before fixing the stuff and making it robust.  M$ has been
> doing it for
> years and getting away with it.  Personally, I blame the end
> consumers for
> putting up with it.  And I don't like MS either.
>
> I still believe in the 3 S's of the iSeries - Security,
> Scalability, and
> Stability.  My revelation is that lately our reputation as the most
> expensive machine is not accurate.  And I think it has hurt
> the system just
> as much as any other misconception.
>
> iSeriesNetwork just ran an article and there was the
> following quote from
> an analyst (Jeff Hewitt) at Gartner:
>
> Mr. Hewitt was quoted as saying "Hewitt hasn't heard a
> one-minute "elevator
> speech" that would convince him that the iSeries is the way
> to go â nor
> does he believe he's likely to hear one."
>
> Here is my email that most likely will never get a reply:
>
> Here is one.....
>
> 1.) SAP feasibility study for a mid-size manufacturer.
> 2.) Major manufacturing and financial modules implemented.
> 3.) Comparison between WINTEL/SQL Server and iSeries configuration.
> 4.) 20 Wintel server configuration compared to 2 iSeries i5 servers.
> 5.)  Hardware acquisition costs showed the iSeries to be 11% more
> expensive.
> 6.)  Hardware acquisition, software acquisition, hardware
> maintenance, and
> software maintenance showed the iSeries to be 4% less
> expensive per year
> given a 3 year depreciation schedule.
> 7.)  Technical personnel (Basis, systems administration, data base
> administration) requirements determined a need for 3-4 iSeries support
> personnel vs 8-12 support personnel for the WINTEL SQL server
> environment.
> Unix/Oracle solution required 12-14 personnel.  Personnel requirements
> determined by SAP and best practices for the industry.
> 8.)  Annual savings estimated for running SAP on iSeries vs.
> WINTEL/SQL
> Server estimated to be $500,000 to $800,000 annually.  Unix
> solution was
> even more expensive.
> 9.)  Personnel costs were for an area (central Indiana) with a cost of
> living below the national average.
>
> Same product, slightly more stable, slightly more secure.
> ANNUAL SAVINGS
> OF $500,000 to $800,000.
>
> That would be my one minute elevator speech.
>
> Now Joe, I don't disagree with your viewpoints at all.  I
> just happen to
> think that in certain circumstances the cost differential is
> to large to
> not lead with.  If a rational analysis is done (key word if,
> oh wait and
> also rational) the iSeries will come out ahead a lot of the time.  So
> perhaps I should have said something more in line with 'What about
> downtime? And by the way, I bet it isn't more expensive'..............
>
> And as a result of some of these discussions I do have an updated
> resume......
>
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