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Gang, Just as a frame of reference I've included the original question that started the thread and my answer to John. I've since found out that John's company decided to go to Windoz, so for him this is all moot. ********************** Original question from John McKown ************************** from: "McKown, John" <john.mckown@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> subject: Question about UDB on iSeries Please keep in mind that I know **ZERO** about the iSeries and UDB. We are considering a conversion from z/OS on zSeries to i5OS on iSeries. The company doing the presentation basically said that everything that we need, with a few exceptions, is integrated into the i5OS on the iSeries. In particular UBD is integrated (so we don't need to buy it). But I was wondering if any iSeries people out there have an opinion about the lack of requirement for any extra software to support UDB on iSeries. Such as performance monitors, reorganization utilities, anything at all? I'm confused (as usual) about why UDB on iSeries does not require any such software while it appears, to me, that DB2 on z/OS really requires a lot of extra cost software. This is the whole reason that we are considering this conversion. z/OS simply requires too much extra cost software compared to other platforms. ****************************** End of John McKown's question ******************************* ****************************** Beginning of my response to him ****************************** Well, I thought I'd through in my two cents worth since I've been involved in the following areas of work using the real DB2 RDBMs built for VM, VSE, and MVS, and the version called DB2/2 on the OS/2 operating system, and the pseudo-DB2 on the iSeries as well as another highly used RDBMs, called Oracle: System Programming, DBA, DA, consultant to developers of applications using those RBDMS and Director of a development shop creating multi-terabyte data warehouses using both DB2/MVS and Oracle. I even go back to the days of the S/38 and S/34. I don't say this to impress but I just didn't see any responses from folks that have worked with DB2 in the mainframe environment nor other mid-range industry-accepted RDBMs used on a wide scale, like Oracle. It seems like most of the responses are from folks that are prejudiced to the iSeries and perhaps have limited knowledge of the real DB2. Don't get me wrong, I think the iSeries is a find operating system and is pretty rock solid, BUT the reality is, it and DB2 are not usually used in the same environments and for the same types of applications and reasons as the mainframe. There are reasons why mainframe shops and mid-range shops using RDMBs like DB2 and Oracle went with those engines and platforms and not with the iSeries. If you understand that, you can understand why there are not many non-OEM tools for the iSeries vs. the mainframe and other mid-range boxes like those that run Oracle. In addition, most iSeries shops I know of, since they have been influenced by Rochester and tend to move only in that environment and have done so for decades, don't have an unbiased view of how different the DB2/400 implementation is from the rest of IBM and why that is not necessarily good. And, from my point of view, it seems that most iSeries shops that fool with DB2/400 do so from the traditional S/38, AS/400 legacy point of view spoken about earlier and that is not a wise use of a resource. IBM is also part of the problem because of the way they implemented DB2 on the AS/400 because of the operating system architecture. One of the questions that should be answered is, "but with all that, can DB2/400 be used wisely and in keeping with the tenets usually found in the rest of the RDBMs world and why is that important to my business?" That question should also peak the interest of the legacy AS/400/iSeries technical folks as well especially if they see their world shrinking relative to the expansion of other worlds that use RDBMs. Let me know if you'd like to explore this further. Take care, Dave ************************* End of my initial response ************************************* ************************* Part 1 of my response to other's questions ******************************* ************************* The first part of my answer that I'll expound on ************************* 'Don't get me wrong, I think the iSeries is a find operating system and is pretty rock solid, BUT the reality is, it and DB2 are not usually used in the same environments and for the same types of applications and reasons as the mainframe. There are reasons why mainframe shops and mid-range shops using RDMBs like DB2 and Oracle went with those engines and platforms and not with the iSeries.' First, let me say, my answers are from my experiences and, naturally don't cover all the occurrences of iSeries/AS/400s. There are always exceptions in any community of computing platforms. I do, indeed, find the AS/400/iSeries, or whatever the "de jour" name is, to be a rock solid platform and I hope it will stay around and be expanded upon, but I have my doubts. The comment "it(meaning the iSeries/AS/400/et all) and DB2..." means that, for the most part, iSeries seem to be used solely as transaction processors often using packaged solutions(again, yes, there are always exceptions) and with smallish (less than 500 interactive users and/or active batch jobs(not the one's used to maintain the system.) Mainframes and mid-ranges tend to be used across the entire gamut of data processing possibilities mostly with non-packaged solutions, with large numbers of interactive users and active batch jobs and for much more than transaction processing. When the real DB2 is used, or Oracle for that matter, the software is often custom, with a huge number of users and transactions at one time, and, often the RDBMS is used for additional activities like data marts, data warehousing and data mining. Often this requires DB2 or Oracle to be generated on the same box but for different types of tasks. These databases are often HUGE and have to be "managed". By that I mean, they have to be architected and tuned, each differently for its own purpose. Since the iSeries DB2 is considered "integrated" with the OS, the same is not as easy, especially if DB2/400 is used like the legacy flat file data base used in that environment since the S/38 days. Now, you COULD architect and manage things on DB2/400 somewhat like the real DB2s but it would take a change in how iSeries shops and people think and do. This is one reason why you don't find very many OEM products to "manage" DB2 on the iSeries like you do on the other platforms. If the shops don't work like the other RDBMS environments there is little reason to create any tools and, hence, no market. More later, Dave
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