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Keep in mind, that at that time, IBM provided the RTVCLSRC command, and the concept of ALWRTVSRC was not yet invented. Al Al Barsa, Jr. Barsa Consulting Group, LLC 400>390 914-251-1234 914-251-9406 fax http://www.barsaconsulting.com http://www.taatool.com "York, Albert" <albert.york@nissan To: "'MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com'" <MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com> -usa.com> cc: Sent by: Subject: RE: V5R1 Library List Enhancement (was: PRTCMDUSG RTVJOBA) owner-midrange-l@mi drange.com 04/10/01 04:24 PM Please respond to MIDRANGE-L The last time that I remember that we had to recompile our programs when we upgraded the OS was on the System/38, and we had to recompile all of our C/L programs. I think that was around 1982. The system/38 was still fairly new at that time and IBM was apologetic about it. They said they would never do it again. So far, they haven't. -----Original Message----- From: Jim Damato [SMTP:jdamato@dollargeneral.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 12:30 PM To: 'MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com' Subject: RE: V5R1 Library List Enhancement (was: PRTCMDUSG RTVJOBA) I still like the idea of an AS/400 mode. Keep all V4 commands intact in AS/400 mode just like System 38 mode. Make all OS changes to the "native iSeries environment." IBM could initially make vague threats that AS/400 mode is going away some day, eventually leading up to the iSeries V5R4 announcement that V5R5 will be the last AS/400 mode release and that V6 will not support old AS/400 commands. That way folks would have to start taking responsibility for their dinosaur applications instead of clinging to the mentality that if an application runs today IBM will always support it. -----Original Message----- From: barsa@barsaconsulting.com [mailto:barsa@barsaconsulting.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 10:39 AM To: MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com Subject: RE: V5R1 Library List Enhancement (was: PRTCMDUSG RTVJOBA) I agree that I don't want to start a war, but this is the first significant change to CL that makes you recompile ever! Given the fact that IBM has allowed us to avoid this for over 20 years, they could have done it now. There are several possible techniques: Support a second portion of the user library list. Possibly with access to both parts together in certain commands. Add job level support for short vs. long library lists. This would require change to a *JOBD, and likely an added system value. Not support the requirement. IBM made a statement many years ago that there would "never be support for over 25 libraries in the user portion of the library list". They could have kept to that promise. Teach people how to code properly. The only untenable solution that I could imagine was to break user's code. Al Al Barsa, Jr. Barsa Consulting Group, LLC 400>390 914-251-1234 914-251-9406 fax http://www.barsaconsulting.com http://www.taatool.com Jim Damato <jdamato@dollargene To: "'MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com'" <MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com> ral.com> cc: Sent by: Subject: RE: V5R1 Library List Enhancement (was: PRTCMDUSG RTVJOBA) owner-midrange-l@mi drange.com 04/10/01 10:34 AM Please respond to MIDRANGE-L There are a number of choices. -You stay on V4R5 until you can switch to a supportable product. -You hire a consultant who has SEU and a CL compiler to produce the hack to RTVJOBA I've described. -You stay on V4R5 forever. As long as your software is unsupportable you may as well bring your OS to the same state. -You recognize that you've been living on borrowed time, and that you won't be supported forever. I don't want to start another war here, but I really don't believe that systems vendors are obligated to provide full backwards-compatibility forever. This is a relatively minor change compared to what we've seen in the Oracle or Windows world. The poor fools who are in the mess you describe can run V4R5 fully supported for quite a while, during which time they can plan and budget for patches, upgrades, or replacements. The moment your software vendor goes out of business you yourself are responsible for contingency planning. Who would you blame if the hardware vendor went out of business? And falling behind in software support is a business decision with associated risks. We moan about IBM's failure to market properly, but we expect them to produce a competitive, cutting edge machine that can also continue to run every third-party nightmare ever produced on this platform and the System 38. In all seriousness, with your presence in the market why don't you lobby to IBM for an "AS/400 mode"? It might help the brand if they were able to draw that line in the sand between the iSeries and its legacies. James Damato Manager - Technical Administration Dollar General Corporation <mailto:jdamato@dollargeneral.com> -----Original Message----- From: barsa@barsaconsulting.com [mailto:barsa@barsaconsulting.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 8:26 AM To: MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com Subject: RE: V5R1 Library List Enhancement (was: PRTCMDUSG RTVJOBA) And what do you do for programs for which you have no source and where the CL is not retrievable? What do you do if you don't have SEU? What do you do if you are just a dumb user, and have an end-user system with an unsupported package (that's worked since the year of the flood), with: a.) a vendor out of business b.) support so far behind that you cannot afford to get current Al Al Barsa, Jr. Barsa Consulting Group, LLC 400>390 914-251-1234 914-251-9406 fax http://www.barsaconsulting.com http://www.taatool.com Jim Damato <jdamato@dollargene To: "'MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com'" <MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com> ral.com> cc: Sent by: Subject: RE: V5R1 Library List Enhancement (was: PRTCMDUSG RTVJOBA) owner-midrange-l@mi drange.com 04/09/01 08:15 PM Please respond to MIDRANGE-L Gee, if we all had externalized our library list retrieval along with our DB/IO programs we wouldn't have this problem, would we? In all seriousness, couldn't you just write a new command (call it OLDRTVJOBA) and CL program to interpret the new library list results of RTVJOBA? The new command would run the V5R1 RTVJOBA and return the 275 character library string we know and love. Scan source or run Pathfinder command usage to find as many occurrences as you can. The code modification would just require that you replace RTVJOBA with OLDRTVJOBA. If you missed any programs you could easily change them as they blew up. The command processing program for OLDRTVJOBA could also detect when you've crossed the 25 library threshold. Eventually someone's going to take advantage of the new feature and throw you out of compliance, so you might as well report it on QSYSOPR. Those poor folks who don't have all their source (and those folks who don't want to change their code) could make OLDRTVJOBA into the new RTVJOBA and put it in a system library at a higher level than QSYS, and have the command processing program execute QSYS/RTVJOBA. As a veteran of software package hell I look forward to an increase in the number of libraries in the user library list. I always liked letting the OS environment do the work for me instead of configuring software environments via CL for all my packages. Unfortunately it was impossible to provide library entries for coexisting merchandising, financial, EDI, spool management, etc. package library lists. I agree that V5R1 has ripped the rug out from under us, but I also think that providing a system value or old and new library list strings in RTVJOBA is a bit of a hack. I never got really liked the legacy fields in the output files for DSPOBJD and DSPFD either. We're expecting the system to grow and respond the changing face of technology, remaining competitive in a complex market, but we also want it to painlessly run our 1989 legacy applications, gracelessly migrated off the System 38. Maybe IBM should set up an "AS/400 mode" for the iSeries. James Damato Manager - Technical Administration Dollar General Corporation <mailto:jdamato@dollargeneral.com> -----Original Message----- From: barsa@barsaconsulting.com [mailto:barsa@barsaconsulting.com] Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 11:07 AM To: MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com Subject: V5R1 Library List Enhancement (was: PRTCMDUSG RTVJOBA) Hi, Just for the record, the correct spelling of the word "enhancement" is "f-i-a-s-c-o". I intend to be very vocal about the V5R1 increase in number of libraries in the user portion of the library list. I have refrained from comment in this forum until I received a clearance from Rochester, which I received on Tuesday. I had received clearance to speak about this informally at the Fall COMMON conference in Baltimore. Prior to that conference, I also conducted about 10 to 12 interviews on the topic, and reported those results to IBM. IBM paid about as much attention to my findings as the Morton Thiokol engineers did to the space shuttle o-rings. As far as I can determine, they never contacted any of the interviewees (whose names and identification I provided) on a timely basis when the resolution of this problem was being determined. The problem is that IBM increased the number of libraries in the user portion of the library list from 25 to 250 in the unannounced release of OS/400. This will cause any properly coded RTVJOBA command (As well as some APIs) that specified the USRLIBL to fail if more than 25 libraries are found on the list (My definition of properly coded is that the return value has to be 275 bytes.) IBM has provided a poorly designed band-aid for V5R1 via PTF. I was the person that requested IBM to code the fix, and they coded it improperly. (They cannot complain that they didn't know how to write the fix,as I gave them the pseudo code. Depending on how inadequate the PTF proves, I may clean it up and publish the pseudo code here, but I'm too busy at the moment.) When you exceed 25 libraries on the list, the IBM PTF provides a different escape message, so you code abends with a different error message. This is about as exciting as kissing your sister. The fix provides a system wide patch (no, not scoped over the job, which is what is needed) that will only be supported for a few releases. (In fairness to IBM, a system wide patch was about what we could have expected from them at the time I discovered the problem anything else would have been too expensive to code, based on how complete that release of OS/400 has progressed. This negates the fact that the both the functional addition and the patch were not well thought out.) They're fairly mad at me for complaining about this, but what else is new? The last time I complained about anything as severely as I plan to complain about this, it was when I said that "V3R1 sucked", and of course, IBM said that V3R1 was stable and told me I was wrong. The long term solution is that you must find every RTVJOBA command that uses the USRLIBL parameter, and replace the returned variable from 275 to 2750 bytes. Depending on what you do with that data*, this could cause other parts of that program to fail. Assuming that you have all of your source, this is not an impossible task. You could scan for every RTVJOBA using PDM, and then examine every command by hand for USRLIBL. There is a new TAA Tool called Scan Command Keyword (SCNCMDKWD). You can specify the command name and the keyword name. In both cases it is your responsibility to make sure that the program will still run. You also (reasonably speaking) need a license to SEU. * Exactly what you do with the returned data will determine the complexity of the fix. As far as I can determine, most people stuff it into a few different variables, so the fix is easy. If you stuff it into a data area, this is tougher, because the maximum length of a data area is 2000 bytes. I know of one vendor that puts every library name into a different field in a database file - oh god forbid! If you don't have your source, you have been @#$%ed by IBM. Why is this significant? This is the first time that IBM has done this to you (making a change to the architecture of the system and requiring you to go back to source) ever in the system. There are some notable exceptions: In Release 3.0 of CPF, IBM required you to recompile every CL program. However in that release they added the new RTVCLSRC command, and of course, prior to that, there was no notion of ALWRTVSRC(*NO). The first release of the System/38 Migration Aid (5714MG1) had no notion that observability could have been removed. When IBM discovered that some vendors were removing the program template, they added a diagnostic aid to this product. The RMVOBS parameter of CHGPGM was added in V1R2M0 of OS/400, but (IMHO) IBM provided adequate warning of the drawbacks. What IBM should have done (and should still do in a future release of the system) is add this feature as a system value, allow the system value to default into an attribute of a job description, and at job initiation time, the value should be propagated to the job. The value needs to be consistently added to both the native AS/400 functionality, and the System/38 compatibility command set. (This sounds like a lot of work, but it's really trivial. In fact the current PTF is inconsistently applied over the native commands and the System/38 commands.) It also needs to be extended to save/restore. I have privately submitted my proposed changes to IBM in detail, and they have yet to respond with any intentions to do anything other than file them in the circular file. In my opinion, the change was not well thought out by IBM. (My upcoming magazine article on this subject might be less polite in terminology.) Al Al Barsa, Jr. Barsa Consulting Group, LLC 400>390 914-251-1234 914-251-9406 fax http://www.barsaconsulting.com http://www.taatool.com MacWheel99@aol.com Sent by: To: MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com (AS400 & family discussion group), owner-midrange-l@mi BPCS-L@midrange.com (BPCS Users Discussion Group) drange.com cc: Subject: PRTCMDUSG RTVJOBA 03/31/01 12:00 PM Please respond to MIDRANGE-L From MacWheel99@aol.com (Alister Wm Macintyre) (Al Mac) Below is cut & paste of information from an AS400network newsletter that I want to talk about ... I left their advertiser URLs included in hopes they will not get annoyed with me for forwarding their copyrighted stuff. Item # 4 affects BPCS & probably every other ERP & other software package that anyone is using on the 400. PRTCMDUSG gets at a list of all programs that use a particular command. I learned about this command in prior MIDRANGE-L discussion about cross-referencing where various software objects are used. We have 800 CL programs in our BPCS 405 CD live environment library list that use RTVJOBA. Some of them are our modifications, but most are vanilla base BPCS. RTVJOBA is the first of the 5 commands listed in the newsletter that will return more information starting OS/400 V5. This is not the whole picture, but I have to start somewhere. RTVJOBA can be used to retrieve a lot of stuff about a job ... library list information is not its only usage, so in many cases the fact that OS400 V5 is going from 25 to 250 user libraries in the list won't make a bit of difference, but when the retrieval is to access the library list information, the fact that more data is coming back could have a detrimental effect depending on how the software is written, and depending on if & when we utilize the extra libraries. The situation for BPCS V6 users is different than for BPCS 405 CD because V6 users do not have access to the source code, rather all code is via SSA's "case" AS/Set. SSA had announced that they dropping support for 405 CD effective end of May 2001. This IBM V5 is due out beginning of May 2001. Now there are SEVERAL places that offer good quality tech support for BPCS 405 CD when SSA's ends, so that is not a problem. My thoughts are a) Does SSA know about this? (I sent a general inquiry to SSA tech support to ask) b) Can we expect a final REL 03 aggregate collection of BMRs at the end of 405 CD that includes a fix for this nuance? Assuming that we can not depend on such an expectation, there is a joint challenge of identifying inventorying what all our retrieve library list software is doing to figure out the impact & what needs fixing. I think there is a PDM search & substitute command string that I need to learn, except I like to look at what exactly is happening in each instance. However PDM search might help in mapping out how RTVJOBA is used in our 800 programs. Subj: Club Tech iSeries Programming Tips - 03.29.01 From: ClubTechiSeriesPrgrmTips@list.as400network.com (ClubTechiSeriesPrgrmTips) *********** Club Tech iSeries Programming Tips Newsletter *********** An AS400 Network Publication http://www.as400network.com Home of NEWS/400 Magazine Issue 41 March 29, 2001 Sponsored by Generic Software, Inc., at (800) 698-5669 or visit http://www.genericsoftware.com/html/save_output_queue.htm . <snip> THIS WEEK: > APIs by Example: Read/Write an IFS File Line in RPG IV > APIs by Example: Read an IFS File Line in Cobol > Data Area Editor Utility > Poor Man's Cross-Reference > Maximum Libraries in *LIBL to Change from 25 to 250 < big snip > * Make your RPG Programs happy! Download RPG-Alive... http://www.RPGAlive.com <snip> 4. MAXIMUM LIBRARIES IN *LIBL TO CHANGE FROM 25 TO 250 The V5 release of OS/400, due out in May, changes the maximum number of libraries in the user part of a library list (*LIBL) from 25 to 250. This will alleviate some problems that arose from the previous limitations, but it may cause other problems with your existing code. The new versions of the RTVJOBA (Retrieve Job Attribute) command and the QUSRJOBI (Retrieve Job Information), QWCRTVCA (Retrieve Current Attributes), QUSRSPLA (Retrieve Spool File Attributes), and QWDRJOBD (Retrieve Job Description) APIs can now return more data than in previous releases. Be sure that any applications you have that use one of these interfaces provides enough room for 250 libraries in the return value. When you increase the size of a return variable, you can still safely call V4R5 and earlier releases of these interfaces because there is no harm in providing more space than needed. Just be sure that your own application logic correctly handles however many library entries are returned. For more information, see: http://www.ibm.com/eserver/iseries/developer/os400/lib_list.html Thanks to Paul Conte for the above item <snip> http://as400network.com/str/books/uniquebook2.cfm?NextBook=181 . This newsletter is edited by Chuck Lundgren, mailto:clundgren@as400network.com . FOR NEW SUBSCRIPTIONS, you can subscribe by joining the AS400 Network with a handy Web form at http://www.as400network.com/join/ . IF YOU WANT TO SPONSOR a Club Tech iSeries Programming Tips Newsletter, please contact your AS400 Network sales manager. Click here for details: http://www.as400network.com/info/mediakit/Sales/Index.htm . ___________________________ Copyright 2001, NEWS/400 http://www.as400network.com +--- | This is the Midrange System Mailing List! | To submit a new message, send your mail to MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com. | To subscribe to this list send email to MIDRANGE-L-SUB@midrange.com. | To unsubscribe from this list send email to MIDRANGE-L-UNSUB@midrange.com. | Questions should be directed to the list owner/operator: david@midrange.com +--- +--- | This is the Midrange System Mailing List! | To submit a new message, send your mail to MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com. | To subscribe to this list send email to MIDRANGE-L-SUB@midrange.com. | To unsubscribe from this list send email to MIDRANGE-L-UNSUB@midrange.com. | Questions should be directed to the list owner/operator: david@midrange.com +--- +--- | This is the Midrange System Mailing List! | To submit a new message, send your mail to MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com. | To subscribe to this list send email to MIDRANGE-L-SUB@midrange.com. | To unsubscribe from this list send email to MIDRANGE-L-UNSUB@midrange.com. | Questions should be directed to the list owner/operator: david@midrange.com +--- +--- | This is the Midrange System Mailing List! | To submit a new message, send your mail to MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com. | To subscribe to this list send email to MIDRANGE-L-SUB@midrange.com. | To unsubscribe from this list send email to MIDRANGE-L-UNSUB@midrange.com. | Questions should be directed to the list owner/operator: david@midrange.com +--- +--- | This is the Midrange System Mailing List! | To submit a new message, send your mail to MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com. | To subscribe to this list send email to MIDRANGE-L-SUB@midrange.com. | To unsubscribe from this list send email to MIDRANGE-L-UNSUB@midrange.com. | Questions should be directed to the list owner/operator: david@midrange.com +--- +--- | This is the Midrange System Mailing List! | To submit a new message, send your mail to MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com. | To subscribe to this list send email to MIDRANGE-L-SUB@midrange.com. | To unsubscribe from this list send email to MIDRANGE-L-UNSUB@midrange.com. | Questions should be directed to the list owner/operator: david@midrange.com +--- +--- | This is the Midrange System Mailing List! | To submit a new message, send your mail to MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com. | To subscribe to this list send email to MIDRANGE-L-SUB@midrange.com. | To unsubscribe from this list send email to MIDRANGE-L-UNSUB@midrange.com. | Questions should be directed to the list owner/operator: david@midrange.com +--- +--- | This is the Midrange System Mailing List! | To submit a new message, send your mail to MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com. | To subscribe to this list send email to MIDRANGE-L-SUB@midrange.com. | To unsubscribe from this list send email to MIDRANGE-L-UNSUB@midrange.com. | Questions should be directed to the list owner/operator: david@midrange.com +--- +--- | This is the Midrange System Mailing List! | To submit a new message, send your mail to MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com. | To subscribe to this list send email to MIDRANGE-L-SUB@midrange.com. | To unsubscribe from this list send email to MIDRANGE-L-UNSUB@midrange.com. | Questions should be directed to the list owner/operator: david@midrange.com +---
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