Re: CODE/400 -- MIDRANGE-L

** Reply to note from DAsmussen <DAsmussen@aol.com> Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:05:22 EST

> Sorry if my post was unclear, I didn't mean to imply _that_ at all!  What I
> meant to convey was that these shops with management's finger on the ROI
> button at all times would be more likely to get Visual Basic as a trial
> replacement editor at $100US before they'd get CODE/400 at $1K US.

I don't know if you are aware of this Dean, but Visual Basic doesn't allow
you to write RPG. The two tools are very, very different. I guess this is
where I should say, "But Code/400 should be very attractive to management
since it would cost thousands per seat to get everyone plastic surgery."
Only one of the two choices has anything to do with increasing programmer
productivity in an RPG shop.

> For now.  But I get more and more requests for (pick your PC development
> language) skills to write C/S applications that interface to the /400
> database.  IBM's market direction is taking hold, and the AS/400 is slowly
> becoming the "server of choice".  What will happen to those whose "profession
> is" AS/400 application development when there _are no_ applications (other
> than triggers, stored procedures, and database servers) running on it?

The reason you get more and more requests for "(pick your PC development
language)" is because those tools make you more productive. If you were as
productive in RPG, your language of choice would be a valid contender.
This isn't likely if you will always insist that the program must be
chiseled in stone. 

> Me neither.  I used to sell software myself.  I was merely playing "devil's
> advocate" on the issue.

"Devil's advocate"? You were stating that IBM would be better off to lower
the price of their software so it would be more popular with thieves! 

>   
> >  By the way, why would you think that someone would prefer to steal a
> >  cheaper product?
>   
> Because it was easier to talk management into buying it in the first place.

Oh, I see, because it would be easier to talk management into buying the 1
starter copy to steal from. I see. 

> And what "evidence" would this be?  The only "preponderance" I've seen so far
> is people unable to talk their management into purchasing CODE/400.

Then show me the deep penetration of some other tool into AS/400 shops?
Your own statements were that you were upset that you were forced to use a
case tool! The evidence is a poll of AS/400 shops! Now, I haven't been in
them all, but I the ones I have been in write RPG using PDM/SEU. Mention a
better tool on this list and listen to a rash of arguments about why not
to use it!

The evidence clearly shows that AS/400 shops do not like to evolve. 

> >  What you are telling me is that you think programmers and managers who are
> >  cannot find enough staff members and who have a backlog of programs
> >  needing coding decided not to pay $800 because there are cheaper packages
> >  that don't let them develop RPG for an AS/400. 
>   
> I don't recall either saying _or_ implying that, but let's go with it.  My

Then what exactly were you saying or implying when you indicated that IBM
should lower the price of Code/400 (an RPG development tool for the
AS/400) to be more comparable with Visual Basic (a graphic cut and paste
application builder for Basic on a PC)?

> current primary client has averaged 6 months/employee trying to find qualified
> AS/400 personnel (this _AFTER_ dropping the requirements for knowing either
> BPCS _or_ the AS/Set CASE tool).  They can have a VB "guru-level" employee in-
> house tomorrow -- probably for less money than they pay their _junior_ AS/400
> folks.  What I'm trying to say is that all the productivity gains in the
> _world_ will not help if you cannot find qualified personnel.  Yes, AS/400

I'll be god damned. That is like hitting me with a hammer. Dean, if you
can't find good people, isn't that an even better time to IMPROVE THE
PRODUCTIVITY OF THE PEOPLE YOU ALREADY HAVE?!?!?!?! 

If you have to search 6 months to find an employee, and you have five in
house (you didn't give a number of employees), and you have a tool that
can improve productivity 20%, then what kind of additional justification
do you need for trying it?

However, it appears that your client has opted for reading Visual Basic
ads and wishing desperately he could hire more people to increase
productivity?

> folks can pick up CODE quickly.  Where do you find them?  A VB'er probably
> won't pick up CODE quickly, but he/she is certainly easier to come by than
> someone that can.  If the current developer shortage continues, I can envision
> C/S projects being approved merely because there _ARE NO_ people available to
> do the green screen work.  That would be a bad thing, IMO.

I think that IBM has long since realized that AS/400 shops aren't going to
learn new tricks. Haven't you noticed that VA for Java is $100? Enterprise
edition $1995. 

This way, IBM has found a way to create a new batch of AS/400 and
mainframe programmers even though their customers won't budge. I have seen
a few "language of the month" comments about Java here, but I can tell you
this: AS/400 shops are forcing Java to succeed or the AS/400 to fail. 

> >  If the product cost $5000 a seat, it would be a good deal for AS/400 shops
> >  anyway. 
>   
> Perhaps.  The _actual_ cost isn't the issue that I'm agruing here.  It's the
> _perception_ of that cost by management.  More and more shops are managed by
> non-technical folks that don't have a _CLUE_ as to the value-add of something
> like CODE.  All they see is SEU="free", VB=$100US, CODE=$900US -- a no-brainer
> decision for a Harvard MBA looking to minimize expenses for the sake of
> minimizing them.  Throw in VB="C/S applications that _MY_ management has read
> about as the flavor du jour", and you're dead in the water as far as CODE is
> concerned.

No, I am not. See, I understand that the business case for Code/400 is
very strong. While you are willing to assume that a guy who got an MBA
from Harvard is just an idiot who can't tell the value of investment, I am
willing to bet the average one of them can use a spreadsheet. I can show
the guy, based on the average cost of a programmer, that betting a two
week experiment against a 20% productivity increase is valid. 

By the way, I don't bother contending with VB, because it (of course) HAS
NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CODE/400 QUESTION! Do you, or your clients, think
that they must choose between faster AS/400 development and writing
graphic based PC apps? Hey, good news! You can do both! If you don't want
to use VisualAge for RPG, then just license Code/400 AND Visual Basic.
When I bought Code/400 last, you could choose to license VA RPG or not. 

> Application reliability _RARELY_ appears as part of an ROI analysis...

I didn't say it did. I was trying to emphasize the point that you continue
to ignore the fact that VB and Code/400 are for different tasks.

You choose between reliable or not when you make the decision to develop
RPG on the AS/400 or Basic on PCs. If, in your wisdom, you have chosen to
write RPG on an AS/400, then why in the world would you shop for Visual
Basic? 

> Dean Asmussen

> "Salmon Day (n) -- A day spent swimming upstream, yet ending up in the same
> place you started."

and you feel like you've been "spawned".

 

Chris Rehm
Mr.AS400@ibm.net

How often can you afford to be unexpectedly out of business?
Get an AS/400.
+---
| This is the Midrange System Mailing List!
| To submit a new message, send your mail to MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com.
| To unsubscribe from this list send email to MIDRANGE-L-UNSUB@midrange.com.
| Questions should be directed to the list owner/operator: david@midrange.com
+---