MODERATOR ALERT

> From: Joe Sam Shirah
> 
>     You've hit one of my major concerns.  I'm very sorry that we are
> missing
> out on thoughts from members of the AS/400 Java team.  I'm even more
> concerned that subscribers trying to get answers find their questions
> turned
> into language wars instead of solutions.  And think how statements,
*on a
> java list*, like "OO is useless" and "Java doesn't work for business"
> appear
> to anyone looking over the list, especially when the sentiment is
repeated
> ad nauseum.  If there is vast agreement that these are true, then what
is
> the point of the list?  So far, my solution has been to simply not
respond
> to those posters, but I'm wondering if it's not about time to find or
> create
> a new list that focuses on solutions, sharing expertise, and
community.

<MODERATOR MODE>

You know what Joe Sam?  You just pissed me off.

You are intimating that *I* said Java is useless.  I suggest you go back
through all the posts in that thread and find out exactly what I said,
and who was the one to first put the "Java is useless" tag on the
conversation.  I did say procedural is better than OO for business, and
I think I've made it clear why I think that, with some pretty powerful
examples.


In case you missed it, here's MY summary of Java and the 400:

"Java is good for many, many things, but one thing it is NOT good for is
programming business logic.  Inheritance is perhaps the single most
overused (and misused) feature of any language ever designed, and it
almost NEVER applies in the business world.  Business application make
far better use of composition than inheritance in well over 90% of the
cases I've ever looked at.  Try to come up with 10 places where
inheritance (especially Java's single-parent inheritance model) makes
sense."

And this:

"No, business rules and OO do not mix.  OO is best used to define
processes that are rarely if ever subject to change (communications
protocols, HTML formatting, that sort of thing).  Procedural languages
are by far better for writing business logic that can change from day to
day based on external circumstances."

And this:

"And in any case, the point is not whether inheritance is good or bad,
but whether it is appropriate for business programming.  My position is
that it is not, and that except for the most trivial applications I can
write business logic much more quickly and flexibly in RPG than any
other language."

And this:

"It's simple for me.  For inquiries on data that isn't particularly
sensitive, JDBC and a framework like Struts is great.  This allows you
to build lots of great enterprise information systems for management
without much overhead.

For anything else, I stick with servers written in RPG accessed by a
controller, also written in RPG.  These send message to a servlet, whose
sole responsibility is creating beans from messages, invoking JSPs, and
then converting responses from JSP forms back to messages."


I tried very hard to be concise and clear and as dispassionate as
possible given the nature of the discussion.  And instead I get attacked
by Dieter, who insists that EJBs are the way to go (perhaps you agree
with that, Sam?) and Marc, who was the one who put the "OO is useless"
tag onto the thread.

NOT ME.

The problem stems primarily from the people who think that programming
issues are philosophical ones, not practical ones.  They get caught up
in an architecture (OO) or a language (Java) or a buzzword (platform
independence) and then they invest their entire personality in it, to
the point that if anyone dares to question the buzzword, they take it as
a personal attack.

Me, I could care less, but I will NOT let someone rant on in this list
about how OO is better than procedural, or how RPG is a "Report Program
Generator" or how Java is the one language to rule them all and in the
darkness bind them.  I'm about solutions, and considering I've been the
number one Java/400 advocate for over five years, I find it ironic that
I'm accused, even through implication, of being anti-Java.  I'm not
anti-Java, I'm simply FOR using the right tool for the job, and IN MY
OPINION (yet to be disproven) Java is not the right tool for business
programming.

Sometimes I'm not particularly smooth about it, but if you take the time
to read the messages, you'll see that the frenetic zealotry is NOT begun
on my side of the conversation.  Instead, I'm trying to create a common
sense environment where people who can only see one answer to things are
not allowed to infect everyone else.  Unfortunately, I get statements
like "quick hack" and "don't know anything about OO", and occasionally I
respond in kind.  But if you're professional, no matter how heated the
initial contact, the conversation can get right back on track as it has
with me and Marc.

You see, I don't even care if you agree with me or not, so long as you
don't answer any question with the thought, "Wow, it's RPG, so it must
be bad."  If you have a thought-out answer that would pass scrutiny in a
real world design meeting (as opposed to an OO 101 class in college),
then I'd love to hear it.  Over the years, I've changed my position on
things like SQL and JDBC, and I'm as amenable to change as the next guy.
Well, almost <grin>.

Yes, this is a Java mailing list: Java on and around the iSeries, and
that includes co-existing with RPG.  This is NOT a mailing list about
writing platform independent code at the expense of security, stability
or performance, although I do let the pure Java folks toss their hats in
the ring.  But they better be ready to back up their ideas with
well-thought positions, because THAT'S what this list is about.

Solutions on the iSeries that happen to include Java.

You want to create a new list about Java programming because I say Java
sucks for business code?  Fine.  Or you could include your comments
here, if you're able to back them up.  The fact is that I don't mind
opposing views, as long as they're backed up by something other than "OO
is better".  Hell, if you can tell us how to get a project like San
Francisco to work, then we're all ears, Joe Sam.

But please don't get on my case about the tone or tenor of this list.
This list is foremost about the iSeries, not Java.  And if it weren't
for me, this list might long ago have devolved into an RPG bashing
forum, and that's about as bad an idea as I can think of.

Joe

</MODERATOR MODE>