RE: %EOF, %FOUND and the infamous Dow loop

> From: Douglas Handy
>
> >That's fine while you're stepping through code, but sometimes I
> want to know
> >the current condition of a variable once I've hit a breakpoint.  With an
> >indicator, I could, with a BIF I cannot.
>
> But the same argument can be made for any code you encapulate
> behind a function.

I guess I just can't explain my position to you: using an indicator, I had
visibility, using a BIF I no longer do.  IBM wants me to use the BIF, but
does not give me the visibility that I had with the indicator.  Can you see
this point, or am I just not being clear?


> >What if I had hundreds of
> >programs that don't use the INFDS - is it your opinion that I
> should add an
> >INFDS to them all?
>
> I don't see a problem with adding an INFDS.

>From this answer, I see I'm not being clear, or at least that our
backgrounds are different enough that we see things very differently.  I
come from a development shop, and the concept of touching, even slightly,
hundreds of different programs is frightening.  Even if nothing goes wrong,
it's still a matter of making the changes.  And it's not that simple,
either - you have to add one INFDS for every file.  Even at a couple of
minutes per change, modifying 1000 programs means dozens of hours of work.
If you have a change management system, it's even more complex.  Saying
"just add INFDS for every file" may be more work than you imagine.


> >The loss of functionality is not purely the issue of the BIF, Doug.  It's
> >the fact that, before the BIFs were available, I would write an
> I/O opcode,
> >set a breakpoint immediately after the opcode, and be able to immediately
> >determine the results of the operation without having to step
> through other
> >code.  With the new coding style, I am told to stop using indicators, and
> >use BIFs instead, but now I can no longer execute that same procedure.
>
> As I said, it works basically that way for me.  Set the
> breakpoint immediately
> after the opcode, and when it breaks just do a quick single-step
> to see where it
> goes.  (In my coding style, there is normally an IF test or loop
> condition or
> such immediately after an I/O operation.)

This is exactly the point that I just don't seem to get across to you.  What
you do is NOT what I do!  I do NOT do the single step.  And in fact, I may
not have an IF immediately following my I/O operation.  If I do not, then I
have to wait until I get to the IF statement to see the results of my I/O
operation, where I didn't have to before.  Can you NOT see that this is
different?  The fact that it only matters slightly to you doesn't make it
not different - it only makes it less important to YOU.


> Where's the beef?

Right where I said it was - it is incorrect for me to have to change the way
I debug in order to implement a syntactic change on IBM's part.  Or perhaps
"wrong" is an invalid term, since it implies a value judgement.  Rather, the
whole issue implies a lack of concern on IBM's part as to what impact their
design decisions have on existing implementations.  But from your comments,
you don't think that's a bad thing, and you're willing to change how you do
things every time IBM changes their minds.  Perhaps I'm just not as flexible
as you are.


> >It really wouldn't have taken that long to figure out a way to
> show the results
> >of those particular BIFs.
>
> Nor does it seem hard to make an ever so slight modification to
> the way you use
> debug.  It sounds like you set breakpoints like I do -- just
> after an I/O.  I
> can single step faster than displaying an indicator, or simply move the
> breakpoint.   Either way I don't feel like I've really lost anything.

IBM is the vendor.  I am the customer.  If every time I made a change, my
clients had to change how they ran their business, I suspect I would be out
of clients very soon.  You don't seem to think that's a problem.  We have
different world views.


> And the INFDS still seems like a viable option if you want to
> tell when you are
> at other breakpoints.  The Prefix() keyword makes external
> definitions for stuff
> like the INFDS trivial to implement.

Again, you and I have very different views on the concept of "trivial".  I
think in terms of users with thousands of programs, where implementing a
change like yours could actually cost thousands of dollars.


> >This is my opinion, clearly, and you may not share it.  But I think it's
> >kind of annoying that I need to change my development style
> unnecessarily.
>
> It doesn't change my debugging style.  I just use F10 to
> single-step instead of
> F9 and Enter to display an indicator -- that it, assuming I had recently
> displayed the indicator.

Well, I outlined how it affects me.  Evidently since it doesn't affect you,
then it's inconsequential.  I think that's a rather narrow view, but hey,
that's me.  But this is a lot of bandwidth for what seems to be essentially
an unresolvable difference in viewpoint, so I suspect this is the right time
to let the conversation go.