Re: Simple Subfile question

Tom,

You should notice the complete absence of "Java" in my comparisons between
languages.  Java is not yet a "mature" language, IMO.  There is a lot of stuff
Java does not yet do.  

The API to the Subfile is not my difficulty at all.  Controlling a subfile is
not that hard.  Getting the dumb subfile to do what it's supposed to, and not
what it wants to do is the difficult part!

I don't know of any other systems where I get something to work, and make a
modification in a different section, and get the first section to break.  I am
a modular programmer.  I do not write a complete program and test it.  I write
modules of programs and test them.  Usually in the same source file.  First I
may work on a rudimentary input section.  Test it.  Then work on a rudimentary
output section.  Test it.  Then work on the stuff that goes in between, all the
calculations.  Test it.  Then go back and tune my input and output sections 
testing all the way.  By the time I'm done, I have programs that are rock solid.
Not only are they mostly bug free, but they are very very hard to break. And
very easy to maintain.

Try that with a subfile, like I did.  It just doesn't work.  I wrote one 
section,
tested it.  Wrote a second section.  Tested it.  Used both together in the 
program,
tested it.  Then I made a change (added the SPLEND indicator) and suddenly the
display file didn't work with the subfile anymore.  SPLEND should have 
absolutely
nothing to do with OVERLAY or KEEP or whatever it was that broke my display file
(don't know what it was, because I got sick of trying to figure it out when it
should never of broken in the first place and changed my improvement so it was 
only
half as good, but worked with the crippled display file).

This reminds me of the old days of interpreted Basic when there were certain 
interpreter bugs you had to learn to program around.  Absolutely no sense in why
something wouldn't work but you had to figure out how to program around things.
Stupid things like:

         SomeFunction(Address)

wouldn't work but

         TempAddress = Address
         SomeFunction(TempAddress)

would work (that is taken from a real life change I had to make.  Actually in 
this
particular case I know why the workaround worked because I had thought of 
trying it).

Okay, yes, I should problem put in one of those change request forms, and 
whenever I get
the "extra" 4+ hours to go back to my display file and actually work out what I 
perceive
as a bug I will do that.  But on this project I just don't have the time.

Regards,

Jim Langston

"Westdorp, Tom" wrote:
> 
> Can you print anything in java?
> 
> Subfiles did not get left behind, DDS got left behind.  Why? Because of that
> language standardization of which you write.  Whoopee, here comes SQL.  Has
> anyone seen my data dictionary or field reference files????
> 
> You're looking for the Esperanto of programming languages.  Good Luck.  I'll
> take a pass.  Try and find the real Esperanto.  Are there English words in
> Russian, Spanish, etc?  Sure, and vice versa (hey!  Latin!).  But the
> languages are still different and will always be so.  Then we could discuss
> dialects.  Perhaps with the Chinese?  Consider the different alphabets
> around the globe.  Heck, put a person from NJ in a room with a person from
> AL and chaos will ensue.
> 
> The advantage of RPG is that it is IBM's language.  Want something cool
> added? Just convince Barbara, Hans or better yet George Farr, that there's a
> business case for it and you can get it. Maybe not all of it, maybe not the
> way you'd like it, but nothing's perfect -- not even the eServer iSeries
> as/438.  Want a change to Cobol, C++, Java, etc?  Write up the RFC and send
> it on the journey through heck and see what happens.  And when. Or be Billy
> G and just do it your own way, and to heck with the common good.  Java --
> RIP.
> 
> You want subfiles built into RPG?  Then what about COBOL?  BASIC? C? Java?
> 
> What you have with subfiles is basically just an API that you need to learn,
> master, and get over.  You pass some information and an arcane combination
> of switches and voila.  Stuff happens.  It's just another api, if you can
> master user spaces, user memory allocations, list api's, etc than sfl's
> should be a snap.  You get one that works and use it as a template.
> 
> What other language or system supports subfiles?  So should we kill them to
> make RPG more industry standard?  Heck no!  There is an alternative to
> learning subfiles... don't bother and program without them.  Maybe in
> java...
> 
> In short (too late, I know) "Basic, C, Pascal, RPG" et al ARE "very unique
> specific languages" that HAVE "different ways to do things, and some" CANNOT
> "do some things at all."  As are Java, C++, etc.  Choose the one that works
> the best for what you're trying to do.  Perhaps there's some way to imitate
> subfiles using stdout?
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Langston [mailto:jimlangston@conexfreight.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 3:12 PM
> To: RPG400-L@midrange.com
> Subject: Re: Simple Subfile question
> 
> Yes, isn't it great that most computer languages aren't like that anymore?
> At one time Basic, C, Pascal, RPG were very unique specific languages.  They
> each had different ways to do things, and some couldn't do some things at
> all
> (Remember basic's PEEK and POKE statements?).  But, dang, you know what?
> All
> these languages have gotten closer through the years!
> 
> I love what they have been doing with RPG, truly I do!  Now it is much much
> easier to write and maintain programs, RPG II is almost a totally different
> language than RPG IV, as it should be, it has matured.
> 
> But somewhere in the maturing process, subfiles got left behind.  Waaaaaaay
> behind.
> 
> But I guess IBM is assuming I'll be programing all my UI's in Java.  Come on
> Java101!
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jim Langston
> 
> Okay, I'm done grumbling now.  Got it all out of my system, sorry you all
> had to hear it.
> 
> "Westdorp, Tom" wrote:
> >
> > I've spoken English for 51 years, at one time spoke Russian, studied Latin
> > for 4 years, and also took a couple of semesters of German.  However I can
> > barely order 'mas cerveza' and ask 'donde esta el bano'.  Must be
> something
> > wrong with Spanish, it's just too hard.  Wholey frijole!
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jim Langston [mailto:jimlangston@conexfreight.com]
> > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 1:24 PM
> > To: RPG400-L@midrange.com
> > Subject: Re: Simple Subfile question
> >
> > 1. I have created subfiles in the past.  And they weren't as difficult as
> > this
> >    one is.  Nor should they be.
> > 2. I never said you don't need knowledge and experience.  I've been
> > programming
> >    since I was 10 years old (literally) and am now 37 years old. I've been
> >    programming professionally since I was 24 or so, about 13 years
> > professional
> >    experience in many different languages on a few platforms.  Do I expect
> >    a middle school to be able to program the things I do?  No.
> > 3. What is my 13 years professional experience, and my 14 years unpaid
> > experience,
> >    chopped liver?
> > 4. Yes.  So why didn't they improve subfiles before giving it to us?  Or
> > improving
> >    them over the years?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jim Langston
> >
> > Rick Childers wrote:
> > >
> > > Maybe they are design flaws and I have just gotten used to them.  But it
> > is
> > > obvious that the mistakes that you were making, come from inexperience
> > with
> > > AS400 subfiles.
> > >   You said "Well, why should I need that much experience to do subfiles
> to
> > > be able to do one?"
> > > 1. It doesn't take a programmer THAT MUCH experience to be able to
> create
> > a
> > > subfile. (Unless your a hamburger shy of a Happy Meal) But the more
> > > experience you have with anything, the more tricks/tips you learn, and
> the
> > > better, more efficient you will be at it.  I didn't have to consult a
> > manual
> > > to know what you were doing wrong with your code. Why? Because I made
> the
> > > same mistakes with my first as400 subfile program. By making those
> > mistakes
> > > I learned the proper way to create a subfile.
> > > 2.  If you don't need knowledge or experience to program then any Middle
> > > School kid that knows what a mouse is could take your job. Or maybe even
> > > upper management writing their own programs. Personnaly I think we are
> all
> > > better off keeping mgmt using spreadsheets & the programs that WE
> create.
> > > 3.  You have to pay your dues.
> > > 4.  Anything worth while is worth waiting for.
> > >
> > >    But hey, that's just an AS400 programmer's opinion.
> > >
> > > >From: Jim Langston <jimlangston@conexfreight.com>
> > > >Reply-To: RPG400-L@midrange.com
> > > >To: RPG400-L@midrange.com
> > > >Subject: Re: Simple Subfile question
> > > >Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 09:58:56 -0700
> > > >
> > > >Well, why should I need that much experience to do subfiles to be able
> to
> > > >do one?  I understand that's the way they are, but why?  I don't have
> > > >this type of trouble with subfile type programs in windows.  In any
> > > >language,
> > > >C++, VB, Delphi.
> > > >
> > > >I consider it a design flaw.
> > > >
> > > >Regards,
> > > >
> > > >Jim Langston
> > > >
> > > >Rick Childers wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > You just need a little more experience with subfiles.  After a
> while,
> > > >when
> > > > > you have a subfile problem, you will know exactly how to fix it
> > without
> > > >even
> > > > > giving it much thought.  Then you will be cruisin'.
> > > > >       Good luck,
> > > > > Rick Childers
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