Joe, a programmer IS NOT a graphical designer. Are you reading my posts? I
am using phrases like "creative people" and "graphical designers". These
are separate roles/talents than programmers. Of those thousands of
developers using Eclipse there are most likely less then 5% that are also
graphic designers. No opinion here - straight facts based on experience.
Yeah, okay. Not sure what that means. In WDSC, you create a template and
by definition all your screens use the same logos, colors, fonts and
whatnot. Not sure why it's an issue.
You are a case in point. You don't understand why things need to look
better than what we can create as programmers. Programmers are glad to have
it working solid - period. I will leave it at that.
<joe>
And re-read the answer. I am a systems architect, Nathan. I know what
pieces need to be delivered in order to create what I consider an enterprise
level system. I have been able to build all of those in a proof of concept
white room environment. I have no doubt that all of the components will
work as I need them.
</joe>
Well, I can't help you anymore on that front. You can learn for yourself.
<joe>
While I haven't implemented an entire client system using EGL, I have
implemented several using JSP Model 2, of which JSF is a superset, so I
think I can base my judgment on that. JSF is an excellent web application
technology, and EGL is a superior way to get dynamic data into JSF.
</joe>
That is a big jump and a big assumption. It is my opinion that you aren't
scrutinizing this enough, but again, my opinion. I look forward to your
articles in 2 years time.
<joe>
Which architectures have you used to create fully-functional enterprise
level system browser-based systems, and what components of those systems do
you consider crucial to the enterprise level?
</joe>
Glad you asked. I created, and actively maintain, an application in use by
a variety of colleges and large businesses in the Twin Cities area. The
application I created isn't mission critical, but it does support 591 users
at its largest install. There are around 120 screens that vary from
maintenance CRUD apps, to shopping baskets, to accountant reconciling, to
reporting. The architecture has the following:
-MyFaces (JSF) for the presentation
-Java 1.5/5.0 (obviously) for all controller and business logic code (with
assistance from JSF on the controller)
-Hibernate for my ORM (read data access) layer
-MySQL 4.1 for my DB engine
-Tomcat 5.x for my app server
If I had to do it over again I probably would have gone with a UI framework
that didn't try to "help" as much, and found a simpler ORM solution (maybe
Spring). Again, the 80/20 rule...JSF is second-to-none on the event
handling from the browser back to a Java method - which was one of the
reasons I picked it. I also liked the pre-built UI components. But when
you need to go outside of the base JSF architecture it can be quite painful.
You can read about some of the woes I had on the MyFaces email list. I
ended up doing raw servlets/JSPs for some of it just because the JSF
lifecycle got in the way (i.e. dynamically creating PDF's and delivering it
back to the browser using the JSF lifecycle was a complete mess that cost me
many un-billable hours). I just got an IM this morning from somebody in
Pakistan asking how to rectify an issue they were having with Phase
listeners because he was up a creek without a paddle (i.e. he didn't know
the framework, so I showed him how to look under the covers a bit). At some
point, if you are developing a size-able app, you WILL need to understand
the whole JSF lifecycle/render-engine/FacesContext/requestmapping
architecture/etc.
So when you look at all things considered I am of the opinion that I DO have
the right to challenge your statements about JSF/EGL and the utopia you make
it to be. You try to make these assumptions coming from a JSP Model 2
background that JSF/EGL will serve you just fine, and you don't realize that
the model you were working with gave incredible flexibility! JSF _doesn't_
give you all of those flexibilities.
You will change your opinion of EGL/JSF - you just wait :-) I think you
will still continue to use it, as will others. It obviously does good
qualities about it - but your opinion will change, mark my words.
That's all I have to say on the subject also.
Aaron Bartell
http://mowyourlawn.com
midrange.com
