RE: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we want tobe)

Both business models and both programming models are very valid.  The
System i has a unique problem in having to deal with some diametrically
opposed needs.  Existing customers, new customers.  Existing
technologies, new technologies.  Stodgy system perception, new adaptive
perception.  Moreover, it has to unfortunately eat IBM's cooking in some
ways.

With limited spending there are some tough choices to make.  Suprisingly
I think that i5/OS and the database are stronger then ever.  But I think
emphasis has been placed in areas that, while necessary, have detracted
from some of the core values.  IXS/IXA, Linux, AIX, WAS, Java, WDSC are
very necessary functions and need to be addressed.  Arguably, they have
some Rochester core values injected into them but perhaps not as much as
i5/OS, RPG, PDM, DB2, etc.  

So, we need proper emphasis on i5/OS, the database, spanning the RPG to
JAVA paradigm, and enabling a world class development platform?   

Don't you think that you are also dealing with a core problem with our
industry at this time?  It seems to me that complicated is in.  Most new
and major technologies have taken a step back from what we really need.
They have some good in them but it just seems to be a consultants or
industry analyst's dream come true.  The hype curve is much larger and
hits earlier and longer than the usability curve....

If it stays the way it is perhaps we will never have to worry about
Skynet becoming self-aware.... :-)

Michael Crump
 
Manager, Computing Services
Saint-Gobain Containers, Inc.
1509 S. Macedonia Ave.
Muncie, IN  47302
765.741.7696
765.741.7012 f 

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-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Nathan Andelin
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 12:29 AM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: Re: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we
want tobe)

Aaron,

 


I think I 
understand your disappointment.  IBM made a brief statement some time
ago about 
looking into the feasibility of providing a native GUI for RPG
developers, and 
to see the direction they're going with WDSC and EGL is frustrating
quite a few 
people.

 


This may not be 
much consolation, but nearly 100% of my development during the past
seven (7) 
years has been on frameworks and applications that provide Web
interfaces, 
served by ILE RPG applications, so I'm way beyond looking at the
feasibility of 
native Web interfaces for RPG developers.

 

Pete Helgren and I 
see things so differently.  I don't care if the ratio of Wintel to
System i 
servers is 10,000 to 1.  My business plan is to create software that
performs 
better, is easier to maintain, is more reliable, and serves people
better, so 
that word of mouth from satisfied customers will build a customer base.

From 

that perspective, the native environment of the System i is where I want
to 
be.

 

Nathan M. 
Andelin

 





----- Original Message ----
From: albartell <albartell@xxxxxxxxx>
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion <midrange-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 10:23:53 AM
Subject: RE: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we
want tobe)

... but I have heard of way to many System i systems or applications

being
replaced because they are not modern/gui/whatever.  Given that, doesn't
something have to change?  And how should it be accomplished?

That is EXACTLY what I am talking about in my rant to George.  IBM is
trying
to introduce us to COMPLETELY new languages (Java/EGL) and servers
(WAS).
Changing to those vs. modifying RPG to meet the same need is where I
think
they have gone wrong.  The change needs to happen to the RPG
language/platform and not through new introduction.  Sure they are
making
consistent changes to RPG (small changes here and there), but they have
ignored the big elephant in the room of us needing RPG native ways to do
web
programming and RPG native thick client interfaces.  

Thanks Mike,
Aaron Bartell


-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Crump, Mike
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 11:13 AM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: RE: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we
want
tobe)

Aaron,

I would definitely say that with any of the modern language environments
that the risk of 'performance' problems is much higher than it is with
our
working languages.  "your mileage may vary"  "buyer beware" "it depends"
are
definite terms to be used when going down this road.

Don't forget that within the RPG world we have decades of experience and
the
learning was typically done at a nice pace (read linear).  Today the
people
using JAVA (even if they are knowledgeable) probably won't get to the
same
level of comfort for quite a while.  And the expectations are that they
pick
this up in a exponential fashion.

I know this goes to your point but the best JAVA programmers are the
guys
who have been doing C or C++ programming for decades.  Same with .NET
weenies.  The complexity transition to any new technology is not to be
trivialized. The ripple effect is a nice way to put it.  Seems to be it
some
where between a ripple and a rogue wave.  The administration of this is
even
more complex.  And problem determination?  

Generally, I agree with most points but I'm not necessarily willing to
damn
the new technologies.  There is a need and a fit out there.  Change for
the
sake of change is never good but I have heard of way to many System i
systems or applications being replaced because they are not
modern/gui/whatever.  Given that, doesn't something have to change?  And
how
should it be accomplished?

Michael Crump
 
Manager, Computing Services
Saint-Gobain Containers, Inc.
1509 S. Macedonia Ave.
Muncie, IN  47302
765.741.7696
765.741.7012 f 

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-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of albartell
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:56 AM
To: 'Midrange Systems Technical Discussion'
Subject: RE: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we
want
tobe)

in essence implemented on a system that is already running a decent

workload, does not have enough memory, is utilizing an older processor,
is
not written very well, etc.

Interestingly enough, these are all things that we "can get away with"
when
coding RPG.  Yes an RPG program can still kill a system, but I think
that
happens much less often than in the Java environment.  I didn't put the
word
"scholarly" in there simply because I was lacking word choice.  You have
to
know A LOT about the ins and outs of Java components to 'get it right'
when
creating a large application with the potential for a lot of concurrent
users.  In RPG you are there much quicker.
 
Good to hear about your other failures to successes with Java. I don't
hear
much of the successes believe it or not.  But like you commented in #1,
a
lot of these things could/should simply be implemented in RPG as that is
the
language most shops support.  Introducing a new language into the mix in
any
shop has MANY ripple effects (think QA, Support, Training, Debugging,
Split
knowledge on multiple platforms, etc)

Thanks for your comments Mike,
Aaron Bartell

-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Crump, Mike
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 8:33 AM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: RE: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we
want
tobe)

Platform independence?  Not very.  We use JAVA more so to allow for
using
the ubiquitous browser and for independence from MS.

Although, I would also have to respectfully disagree with some of
Aaron's
points.  While I would not argue that plenty of people have horror
stories
regarding native Java performance I think that you will find a lot of
them
are of there own making - in essence implemented on a system that is
already
running a decent workload, does not have enough memory, is utilizing an
older processor, is not written very well, etc.

1.)  We have a native JAVA program that processes our finite scheduling
system.  This is program that does a lot of IO and I argued up front
that it
should have never been written in Java because it was a classic fit for
RPG.
I lost but I will have to say that application runs blazingly fast and
processes many functions and millions of records.  I doubt that we would
see
any improvement if it was converted to RPG.  In addition, by most
testing it
is as fast as running it on an independent WINTEL platform.  I have
compared
it run wise on our i5 to an IXS system (to eliminate remote database
issues)
and there is no comparison.  Right now, I am not in the position to test
on
a faster Bladecenter type of unit but perhaps in the future.  The
database
is remote to the native application as well.

2.)  We originally implemented WAS (v3) on a 720 years ago.  80% of the
application runs perfectly fine but certain components were a dog.
Processor was not being taxed, we were not short of memory, we just did
not
have the processor crank and L2 cache that the application needed.
Shortly thereafter we upgraded to an 825 and 100% of the application ran
fine.  A classic example of implementing Java in a not so perfect
platform.
I would argue that as we have climbed the server ladder 7xx, 8xx, 5xx
the
potential for this problem has decreased.

3.)  We run WAS and WPS on our 570's and generally speaking these guys
perform very well.  Our major complaint on WPS comes from portlets that
we
rely on our parent company for and their responsiveness is not very
good.  

4.)  The native JVM can be a resource hog.  That is why the J9 was
invented.
Certain machines and customers should not be running the native JVM.
They
do not have the horse for it.  Is it a problem with the native JVM?
Perhaps.  I would just argue that it is as much environmental as it is
platform.

I cannot argue with the complexity.  However, I think that this is not a
JAVA problem only.  Every existing 'modern' application is much more
complex
than the traditional RPG model.  Whether it is Java, .NET, Domino, etc.
I
think that they are much more complicated either in architecture or in
resulting code length.

Michael Crump
 
Manager, Computing Services
Saint-Gobain Containers, Inc.
1509 S. Macedonia Ave.
Muncie, IN  47302
765.741.7696
765.741.7012 f 

Cluelessness
There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive
idiots. 
This email and its attachments may be confidential and are intended
solely
for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or
opinions
expressed are solely those of the author and do not necessarily
represent
those of Saint-Gobain.  If it did, it would be folded, mutilated,
watered
down, politically corrected, and would show up a week later if at all.
If
you are not the intended recipient of this email and its attachments,
you
must take no action based upon them, nor must you copy or show them to
anyone.
Please contact the sender if you believe you have received this email in
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-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Michael Ryan
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 8:10 AM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we want to
be)

How important is platform independence to the community? It has little
importance to me. I believe RPG is the best language on iSeries, and I
don't
need to write the same code to run on multiple platforms. I *do* write
code
on multiple platforms (VB and C on Wintel), but I don't expect or want
to
run the *same* code on other platforms.

On 3/28/07, albartell <albartell@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

While in that session I was very close to asking the group whether

they gave

a rip about platform independence.

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