RE: RPG,COBOL or JAVA

Just a few comments...  :)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roger Pence [SMTP:rp@rogerpence.com]
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 9:32 AM
> To:   MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com
> Subject:      Re: RPG,COBOL or JAVA
> 
> Put away your cynical Java beliefs (you can put them in the closet with
> mine!), Java is here to stay for the AS/400. It is nearly impossible to
> understate IBM's and, more in our cases, specifically, the AS/400's
> division's, investment in Java.
> 
> Tom Jarosh, General Manager of the AS/400 division recently stated that
> IBM
> has given up trying to "modernize" the currently available 24K+ AS/400
> applications. He said Java is the future for AS/400 programming
> development
> and that IBM is identifying the 150 most important applications for the
> AS/400 and wants to get them to Java ASAP. The Gartner Group, apparently
> believing deeply in what Jarosh is saying, predict that by 2003, 40% of
> AS/400 applications will be written in Java. 
        [And Brad Said:]  40%?  In 4 years?  Highly doubtful when only about
20% (if that) are written in RPG/IV, and maybe 5% really using ILE.  

> Religious language convictions
> aside, it's pretty clear that RPG and COBOL are dead for _new_ application
> development. Yes, there will RPG and Cobol maintenance work for many
> years--but the interesting work and fast path to the most AS/400
> programmer
> income will be with Java. Today, it is mutually exclusive to say you
> believe
> in the AS/400 but not Java. If the AS/400 Java initiative fails, so does
> the
> AS/400. The AS/400 has no fall-back application development strategy.
        [And Brad Said:]  That's a cop-out statement on IBM's part.  People
aren't buying AS/400s simply to use Java.  You can do that on a NT machine
for much less.  They're selling machines because they're just plain good
machines, no matter what language you use.  

        I was just thinking of getting smalltalk... that's still hot, right?

> If you're an AS/400 programmer, and expect to be one in five years, it's
> important to start adding Java skills to your programming utility belt.
> It's
> unfortunate that IBM has such a heavy-handed Java strategy for AS/400
> programmers today. Remember IBM's hamburger flipper from a couple of
> months
> ago in NEWS/400? (the upshot==learn Java or resign yourself to flipping
> hamburgers for a living). 
        [And Brad Said:]  I'm surprised IBM didn't lose customers from that.
(maybe the did, who knows...)  I can do a lot more than program... flipping
burgers?  Oh no... motorcycle racer!!! (or mechanic...)

> For the existing programmer base, IBM doesn't have
> many tools or programs in place to take these programmers by the hand and
> ease them forward into the next generation of AS/400 AD tools.
        [And Brad Said:]  What good is RPG certification then?  On one hand
they're saying get certified, and on the other hand they're saying learn
Java...
>  
> Java cynics today can argue, and perhaps rightfully so, that Java just
> doesn't perform well enough natively to be used as a line-of-business
> application development language. That may be today, but over the next
> couple of years, IBM will nearly quadruple the clock speed of the AS/400
> CPU
> and be putting multiples of this high-powered processor in even low-end
> AS/400s. 
        [And Brad Said:]  So, instead of running reports with RPG, I should
ask my customers to first pay for the rewrite of the applications to Java,
_and_ purchase a new machine?  I'm sure they'd go for that...

> Don't impose today's AS/400 design and performance model absolutely
> on Java--as time goes on, several points will converge to make Java a
> realistic and competitive AS/400 performer.
> 
        [And Brad Said:]  It will have it's place, but only about 15% of the
applications if that...  

> If you are an RPG coder today and want a fast path into Java (this advice
> may even apply a little to Cobol programmers), stop what you're doing and
> get a copy of Advice Press's Java for RPG Programmers by Phil Coulthard
> and
> George Farr. This isn't the only Java book you'll need, but for RPG
> programmers, it is the first one you need!
> 
> Note to RPG grizzly bears:
> Don't come back with angry retorts that RPG _is_ good enough and that you
> can write great applications in RPG. I didn't say you couldn't. The
> problem
> is, what you can't do with those applications is sell them! 
        [And Brad Said:]  We don't seem to be having a problem selling them.
Neither does MAPICS, BPCS, JDE, etc... etc.. etc...

> The issue really
> isn't whether RPG or Cobol are really dead or not
        [And Brad Said:]  Then why did you say RPG and Cobol were dead for
new developement?

> , the issue is, is Java
> alive for the AS/400? And the answer is yes, very much so. 
> Fight it if you
> want to, but application development choices are about to fundamentally
> change forever in the AS/400 camp.
        [And Brad Said:]  No one is fighting Java, they're fighting persons
that say java will take over for RPG... not true.. they will mesh...

> One other note to anyone else threatened by this missive:
> I am not waving the Java flag out of magazine-boy, rah rah-driven drivel.
> Nope, I'm very cynical about many aspects of Java and think IBM has a
> tough
> road ahead to connect all the dots to make Java live up to all its
> claims--especially on the AS/400. But after more than a year of dabbling
> and
> coding, I'm slowly but surely becoming a believer in many of the values
> and
> benefits of Java. I used to argue that book stores should be made to put
> all
> the Java books in the science fiction section--and move them to the
> computer
> section only after Java becomes viable. Today I don't think so--it appears
> now that Java is well on its way to earning that spot in the computer
> section.
> 
        [And Brad Said:]  Most programming languages take years to evolve.
Java has just started evolving.  You mention that Java needs work, but still
in 4 years 40% of the code on AS/400s is going to be Java?  So, until then,
we should start developing in a language that isn't even mature enough to be
called "a real business programming language" and hope that things pan out?

        I'm not putting down Java, I like it too.  I haven't found a
practical use for it yet, but I'm still looking.  I think the problem is
that when we spew our strong opinions like this on a mailing list,
newsgroup, etc, we are really only reaching 5% of the AS/400 population.
There are so many shops in places like West Undershirt Georgia that haven't
even heard of Java and still are programming RPGIII.  And this group surley
outnumbers the users on the internet that actually get to discuss this.

        One more thing to remember is that RPG is a coders language.  Java
is a programmers language.  There is a huge difference.

Bradley V. Stone
Taylor Corporation - OASIS Programmer/Analyst   
bvstone@taylorcorp.com

>  
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