he never answers direct questions.
only silence or a misdirection will be forthcoming.
On Nov 19, 2007 6:13 PM, Rich Rijnders <rich@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
H o w w a s y o u r V O T E R R E G I S T R A TI O N V A L I D A T E D ???
...still waiting...
----- Original Message ----
From: Booth Martin <booth@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: Open discussion among iSeries Users <cpf0000@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 3:08:09 PM
Subject: Re: [CPF0000] Gov Spitzer drops illegals license plan
I know this: The community decides these issues in a democracy.
Thats
how democracies work. It would amaze me if any two states do anything
exactly the same as any other two states. But so what? Isn't that
the
democracy that we want, at work?
Gerald Magnuson wrote:
Booth,
Just asking....
Do you believe that, the same process you went through, in OK,
is
what
_would_ have happened in NY?
To you think that is what IS happening in NM?
Gerald Magnuson
-----Original Message-----
From:
cpf0000-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:cpf0000-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Booth Martin
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 2:15 PM
To: Open discussion among iSeries Users
Subject: Re: [CPF0000] Gov Spitzer drops illegals license plan
A couple of points, Rich.
In all cases where I have registered, I have had to prove
citizenship
and residency. A driver's license goes a long ways to
establish
both,
primarily because a part of the licensing process involved a fairly
diligent effort by a state official. My most recent was getting my
Oklahoma driver's license, and an Oklahoma State Police
Officer
actually
did the verifications. He was quite thorough, and was satisfied
that
my
bona fides were bona fide. I have no doubt but that if the State of
Oklahoma allowed illegals to get driver's licenses that the process
would still be just as stringent. Why wouldn't it?
Additionally, when I vote, I am recognized. But thats part of
the
small
town possibilities and not really possible in, say, Illinois.
Rich Rijnders wrote:
Another straw dog. Nobody ever argued that a dl would "entitle"
someone to vote. The argument, as any sane person reading the thread
will clearly see, is that giving LEGAL ID to ILLEGAL aliens
would
allow
them a greater ability to GET AWAY with voting when they should not.
I have asked Booth twice to elaborate on both how his states
"amazingly effective" verification process works and how he
himself,
as
a voter, proved his legal residency and citizenship to the board.
Still waiting...
As I said before, I have volunteered in both CA and FL. I know that
there is no magical process to verify citizenship. It's a hit
and
miss
process of cross referencing dl#'s, SS#'s, addresses, etc on
the
form,
and only the most glaring discrepancies are questioned. One of
those
is
LACK OF LEGAL ID. In most states, to get a LEGAL ID you need to prove
residency, citizenship, and age. Three of the basic
qualifications
for
voting. So not having a LEGAL ID is a good tip-off to the reviewers.
Absent that check, every voting precinct would have to require that
evidence all over again from each registrant.
I don't share your faith even though you are "sure" that
states
would
identify dl recipients that are not citizens. There was no
provision
for
that in Spitzer's plan. He actually tentatively offered
that
possibility
AFTER all the uproar about it. As I also told you, there is no such
provision on the New Mexico dl. They simply removed the part of
the
dl
application process that required you to prove citizenship. Now
there
is
no way to tell the difference between citizens and non-citizens
with
a
NM dl.
So let's use the New Mexico model:
From the NM Statewide Voter Registration Database Status Report
concerning voter registration validation:
[quote]
Matching Against Motor Vehicle and Social Security Records
What fields from the voter registration form will the state seek to
match to motor vehicle or Social Security records? Full SSN, date of
birth.
Description of matching process: New Mexico has not yet
determined
the
process or criteria by which matches will be sought, nor has
the
state
determined the consequences of any failed match.
[/quote]
So I guess everyone passes since there are no consequences for not
matching. That's pretty scary. Even more scary is the section
from
the
identification requirements for first time voters:
[quote]
Identification Requirements at the Polls
Who must provide identification at the polls? Every voter
must
provide
identification at the polls.6
What forms of identification are accepted? A first-time voter
registering by mail who has not yet submitted identification must
provide a current and valid photo ID or voter ID card, or a utility
bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, student ID card, or
other government document (including ID issued by an Indian nation,
tribe, or pueblo) with her name and current address.7 Any other voter
must submit one of the above documents or a verbal or written
declaration of the voter's name, year of birth, and her SSN-4.8
[/quote]
Love that last sentence. If you don't have any of the myriad
of
valid
id types, they TAKE YOU AT YOUR WORD. It's not even a
PROVISIONAL
ballot
at that point!
So apparently anyone CAN vote, regardless of whether they
are
legally
eligible or not. The big controversy in NM is over the new voting
machines but, from what I see, COUNTING the votes is irrelevant
if
you
can't validate WHO is voting.
----- Original Message ----
From: Booth Martin
To: Open discussion among iSeries Users
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 11:04:40 AM
Subject: Re: [CPF0000] Gov Spitzer drops illegals license plan
And??? Please finish that thought, Gerald.
Currently the Illinois Law requires a driver be a legal
resident,
so
that is a good way to establish residency. However I
seriously
doubt
that, if Illinois were to change their laws concerning
driving
licenses,
they'd overlook this. Or even more probable, if Illinois did
offer
licences to illegals, they'd probably note that the person
is
illegal
and therefore can't vote.
But in any event, there is no proof offered here that a
driver's
license
entitles one to vote.
Gerald Magnuson wrote:
Box 9 asks for Drivers License number, if you don't have that
You can even use your last four digits of your fraudulent social
security number....
Gerald Magnuson
-----Original Message-----
From: cpf0000-bounces+gmagnuson=knapheide.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:cpf0000-bounces+gmagnuson=knapheide.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
On
Behalf
Of Paul Nelson
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 10:28 AM
To: 'Open discussion among iSeries Users'
Subject: Re: [CPF0000] Gov Spitzer drops illegals license plan
You're sending me $1000, but you won't take my word for
the
registration
requirements? Makes me wonder.
http://www.voterinfonet.com/sub/register.asp
Look at the form link
Paul Nelson
Cell 708-670-6978
Office 512-392-2577
nelsonp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From:
cpf0000-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:cpf0000-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
On
Behalf Of Booth Martin
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 10:14 AM
To: Open discussion among iSeries Users
Subject: Re: [CPF0000] Gov Spitzer drops illegals license plan
No, Paul, I don't have to do it. You made a statement that
is
probably
not true, didn't back it up, and now expect me to believe
it?
Why?
Paul Nelson wrote:
I don't live there anymore. You'll have to do the
legwork
yourself.
Paul Nelson
Cell 708-670-6978
Office 512-392-2577
nelsonp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: cpf0000-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:cpf0000-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
On
Behalf Of Booth Martin
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 9:55 AM
To: Open discussion among iSeries Users
Subject: Re: [CPF0000] Gov Spitzer drops illegals license plan
Your support for that, Paul, besides "Even the dead vote there".
Where does the Chicago Law state tyat all thats needed to vote
is
a
license, apparently;y not even an Illinois license is ID enough?
Paul Nelson wrote:
Chicago.
Paul Nelson
Cell 708-670-6978
Office 512-392-2577
nelsonp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: cpf0000-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:cpf0000-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
On
Behalf Of Booth Martin
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:09 PM
To: Open discussion among iSeries Users
Subject: Re: [CPF0000] Gov Spitzer drops illegals license plan
I stop at your first statement. Please name one single place
where
having a legal identification is all thats needed to vote?
Please name one. At that point I will begin to accept some
of
the
rest
of your argument.
Rich Rijnders wrote:
I can't be any clearer, but I will try again.
It has everything to do with giving them driver's licenses
because
licenses are LEGAL identification. In most states, that is ALL
that
is
required to cast a ballot. No LEGAL ID = NO VOTE / LEGAL ID =
VOTE.
You have it ass-backward; giving them drivers licenses has
nothing
to do
with legalizing their driving. Your argument is that giving them
drivers
licenses will make them visible. How? The plan was just to stop
requiring
proof of residence, so everyone will get a license but you
will
have
no
way
of identifying who is legal and who is not. It would in no way
identify
them
or make them "visible" (whatever that means).
Ask yourself what benefit there is to giving illegals a legal
license
and
ID? All you've done is legalize their illegal behavior
(driving).
If
they
are caught driving without a license now, they don't get
arrested
or
deported. So if you give them a license then what? When they get
pulled
over
for speeding, they just get a ticket for speeding instead of
one
for
speeding and one for driving without a license. Big whoop. Where
is
the
big
"visibility" benefit?
Insurance? Trust me, giving them a license is NOT going to
make
them
run
out and get insurance, either. Driving without insurance
is
illegal,
but
they do that, too. Ask anyone in CA where having
uninsured
motorist
coverage is a necessity. Even if you get hit by someone WITH a
license,
you
have 50/50 chance that they are not insured. If their license is
taken
away,
they drive anyway.
So let's see.
It won't increase "visibility" because it won't identify
them
as
illegal
No benefit to them being "visible" anyway
Won't make them go out and get insurance, as can be seen in CA
and
other
states
Oh, but they WILL be able to cast ballots...
Clear enough?
----- Original Message ----
From: Booth Martin
To: Open discussion among iSeries Users
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 3:37:58 PM
Subject: Re: [CPF0000] Gov Spitzer drops illegals license plan
Rich, lets assume that you and I agree on everything you write
here.
But... what does that have to do with illegals and driving
licenses?
if the system is so bad that dead people can vote, then
the
system
is
bad enough that illegals can vote if they wish. Drivers
licenses
will
not affect that in any way.
Rich Rijnders wrote:
Every year THOUSANDS of applications get through and put on
the
rolls. Even dead people. In Chicago there were over
1000
registered
phantom
voters at one two-bedroom house. Also, with a valid state ID
you
CAN
vote, even if your name is NOT on the register. You can cast
a
"provisional" ballot that will have to be sorted out
long
after
election
night.
And the rules in most states say that the provisional ballot
has
counted until it is DIS-proven, not proven.
As I said before, this behavior will at the very least
affect
elections in that it will build false momentum and influence
polling
data
and
reporting. Worse yet, in states like CA, a candidate can not
even
contest an election if the gap is wider than a certain percent
(I
think
it
was 3%). So if you can get enough fake votes to win by that
percent,
they won't even check ballots for illegally cast votes.
BTW: Opaque means that you can't see THROUGH it. The
opacity
of
a
surface determines the extent to which it is NOT transparent.
Reducing
the
opacity of the illegals would make them TRANSPARENT. The
opposite
of
what he meant. It was not a dig, just a correction. A lot
of
people
who
don't live half their lives in Photoshop get that backward...
----- Original Message ----
From: Wayne McAlpine
To: cpf0000@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 1:57:25 PM
Subject: Re: [CPF0000] Gov Spitzer drops illegals
license
plan
Rich Rijnders wrote:
Um, opacity means you CAN see it... Law enforcement are
already
PROHIBITED from even asking if someone is ILLEGAL (go
figure)
and
if
they
find out, they can not call immigration nor can they
give
information
to
the feds. So what is the point of eliminating
their
"opacity"?
Uh, no, opacity means you *can't* see.
The "motor-voter" law requires every one getting a
driver's license to automagically get a voter registration
form
filed....
That's misleading at best. The only thing that "Motor
Voter"
provides
is an application to register to vote and the transmittal
of
that
application to the Registrar of Voters or other election
official.
The
Registrar then makes the determination if that
applicant
meets
the
criteria for eligibility, including age, felony conviction,
and
citizenship requirements. What is there to object to?
--
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---------------------------------
Booth Martin
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---------------------------------
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---------------------------------
Booth Martin
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---------------------------------
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---------------------------------
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