midrange.com -- CPF0000 -- Fw: Transcript of 9/23/2003 next@cnn program - Debate between Dr. Norman Matloff & Thom Stohler on H-1B workers

The letter I wrote to Dr. Matloff appears after the excerpt from the transcript 
below.  

Steve Landess
Austin, Texas
(512) 423-0935

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Full transcript of program can be viewed here: 
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0309/28/nac.00.html

9/28/2003 - Excerpt of debate between Dr. Matloff & Stohler on next@cnn:

Foreign workers hold a lot of high-tech jobs in the United States. Are they the 
only ones qualified, or are they taking jobs that should be filled by 
Americans? There's a lot of debate on the H- 1B visa that lets individuals with 
specialty occupations into the U.S. A number of those visas is set to decrease 
soon. 

Joining us to talk about this issue, Thom Stohler, vice president of the 
American Electronics Association. He's in our Washington bureau. And in San 
Francisco, Norman Matloff, professor of computer science at the University of 
California at Davis. Thanks to both of you for joining us.

Tom, let me start with you. You represent high-tech companies with lobbying and 
government affairs. What are these companies telling you, and why are they 
still using these foreign workers? 

THOM STOHLER, AMERICAN ELECTRONICS ASSOCIATION: Well, why they use the foreign 
workers is they use them to hire a small but significant part of their work 
force, primarily individuals that graduate from American colleges and 
universities with masters degrees and Ph.D. degrees in fields like computer 
science, electrical engineering, mathematics. 

CHOI: Norman, this was supposed to be a temporary program. Are they really 
needed still, these foreign workers? 

NORMAN MATLOFF, UNIV. OF CALIF. DAVIS: Well, they never were needed in the 
first place. And, by the way, the statement that most of the H-1Bs in the 
computer area are people with post-graduate degrees is absolutely false. If you 
look at the computer-related H- 1Bs -- this is the I.N.S. data -- only about 
one percent of them have a Ph.D. in the field and only about seven percent have 
a masters. So a total of eight percent. The graduate issue -- the post-graduate 
degree issue is a just a non-issue.

CHOI: But if Americans are qualified, Norm, then why wouldn't companies give 
them the job? Does this come down to dollars and cents? 

MATLOFF: It's totally an issue of cheap labor. You know the H- 1B law 
supposedly requires that you have to pay prevailing wage. But the definition of 
prevailing wage is so loose that the whole thing is just a series of giant 
loopholes. And the companies, large or small, make use of these loopholes. 

A number of studies have verified that, university studies. And, most 
interestingly, Congress's own commission study by the National Research 
Council. They all found that the H-1Bs tended to be paid less than comparable 
Americans. 

CHOI: Thom, I know the argument from companies is that there just simply isn't 
enough U.S. grads to fill the positions. What's being done to lure more student 
then? 

STOHLER: Well, I don't agree with the underpayment argument. If you look at the 
most recent data released by what is the Bureau of Immigration statistics, the 
average H-1B visa holder in the computer field is making $60,000 a year, and 
that's more than the average U.S. worker makes in computer programming or 
assistance management. 

But the high-tech industry -- part of what happened with the H-1B bill in 2000 
is that there was a $1,000 fee put on every H-1B visa application. And that 
money has gone in to train about 55,000 American workers through the Department 
of Labor grants. And it's through the year 2000 provided about 8,000 
scholarships for students that are getting undergraduate degrees in engineering 
and computer science. 

CHOI: All right. We know the numbers have changed over the past few years. In 
fact, the industry says it's self-correcting. And we have some numbers of how 
this actually plays out in the real world. Let's take a look at them. 

Pre-1998, 65,000. And the numbers go up as the high-tech boom got started in 
1998, as you see there, with a high of 195,000 in 2000. This week, that number 
is set to go down again with 65,000 remaining. 

Norm, there's a lot of concern out there about outsourcing U.S. computer jobs 
to places like Southeast Asia and India once these numbers do go down. Wouldn't 
it be better just to keep those jobs and tax dollars in the U.S.? 

MATLOFF: Well, first of all, very few of the jobs are being offshored. Only 
about one percent. It's very difficult do, and that's why it hasn't been more. 

The issue really is that you to have the people here for face-to- face 
interaction. But, at the same time, the employers want cheap labor. The 
statistic that Thom cited from the I.N.S. talked about computer system 
analysts. That's a very old fashioned. The people that have that title 
generally paid less. 

What he really should have cited was the Bureau of Labor statistics data on 
software engineers. The medium there is $74,000, compared to $60,000 for the 
H-1Bs in that area. There is absolutely no doubt that the H-1Bs are forming a 
source of cheap labor here; that's what is really going on. That is the core 
issue. 

Everything else on training -- training, for example, is a non- issue. Let me 
tell you why. As the -- there are a number of big companies that are admitting 
that they are replacing Americans by foreign nationals and forcing the 
Americans to train their foreign replacement. So, clearly, it's the foreign 
nationals that need the training rather than the Americans. So the training 
issue is just a smoke screen, nothing more. 

CHOI: Thom, what's your take on this outsourcing concern, that once the H-1Bs 
are booted out, and essentially the numbers are so low, and if these companies, 
indeed, can't find qualified workers, will they begin doing more outsourcing to 
countries like India and Southeast Asia? 

STOHLER: No, I don't agree with that assertion. You have to go back to who the 
H-1B visa holders are in the United States. Forty- seven percent of these 
individuals have a masters degree or higher. They are very well educated, 
they're the type of employees that high- tech companies hire for very specific, 
very skilled, very highly educated positions.

And to say that these -- that if they're booted out that we're going to follow 
them is just not true. What would be better would be, since about half of the 
individuals receiving masters degrees and Ph.D. degrees from American colleges 
and universities in fields like engineering and computer science and 
mathematics, those individuals are foreign nationals. It would be much better 
if we had a program that allowed companies to hire these individuals without 
fear of a cap or fear of not being able to hire them and then bring them 
through the citizenship process quicker. That would be better for the high-tech 
industry. 

CHOI: Well, this is a very sensitive topic and we thank both of you gentlemen 
for joining us and giving us your opinions on it. Thanks.

STOHLER: Thank you. 


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Letter I sent to Dr. Matloff yesterday after viewing this program:

Dr. Matloff,

I am part-owner of an IT consulting firm based in Texas that has lost several 
positions with clients because of H-1B and L-1 workers.  In 1998 we had over 
100 employees, located in Dallas, Austin, and Houston.  Today we have around 
10.  Some of this shrinkage is because of declining business from Y2K work and 
because of the internet bust.  However, I would attribute a fair number of the 
job losses we have experienced to companies bringing in non-immigrant cheap 
labor to replace our consultants - 40 those we have laid off have been in the 
last two years, while at the same time I see more and more non-immigrant 
workers show up at client sites all the time.

It was great to see you on CNN defending American workers.  Please keep up the 
good work!  Too bad there was so little time for you to make your statements.  
Large US corporation have been blatantly abusing the H-1B and now the L-1 visas 
for several years now, and it is time for these practices to stop.  

I would like to see an hour-long debate featuring you, representatives of 
American companies that are using H-1B workers and offshore outsourcing, and 
some of our prominent legislators like Tom Tancredo as participants, instead of 
corporate shills like Harris Miller and Thom Stohler.  I'd like also to see 
Michael Dell, Bill Gates, Carly Fiorina and others defend their use of H-1B & 
L-1 workers onshore as well as their decisions to send support offshore.  

I have been campaigning against H-1B and L-1 workers here in Austin for the 
last two years.  I'm so happy that these issues are seeing light of day on 
national media programs like Lou Dobbs and NEXT, both on CNN.  There is still 
hope that we can plug the dike and stop the flood.  Several of us recently 
formed a group here in Austin that is affiliated with 
WWW.RescueAmericanJobs.com to help bring awareness of these issues to residents 
of this area.  I have also contributed to and recommend Rob Sanchez and his web 
site (www.zazona.com), and I am actively encouraging my friends write letters 
to newspapers and TV reporters, to go to sites like www.numbersusa.com and 
www.fairus.org to send FAX messages to their legislators, and to actively 
*call* their legislators to notify them what we are watching how they vote on 
issues before Congress.

I am very interested in the statistics that you quoted on the NEXT program as 
far as the percentage of H-1B workers with advanced degrees.  I would like to 
perform further research on my own (unlike most H-1B workers, I *do* have an 
advanced degree), and I was wondering if you have links to information at the 
BLS site (or others) where I can see the published numbers that you quoted.

As far as what Thom Stohler said, I don't believe for one minute that 47% of 
the H-1B workers in this country have advanced degrees.  I don't know where he 
got that number, but I suspect he pulled it from his rear end, just like all 
the other crap I heard him say on the program.  He didn't mention any published 
sources of information!  
He's just a shill for large corporations - after all, isn't he a lobbyist for 
the AEA?

Again, I have great respect for what you are doing, and I hope that we can stop 
the madness before the whole American middle class is reduced to the poorhouse. 
 

Also, if you publish any type of newsletter, please add my email address to 
your mailing list.

Steve Landess
Austin, Texas
(512) 423-0395

PS:  

Recently a friend shared a story with me about calling Dell technical support 
for a problem with his laptop computer.  After repeated calls to an offshore 
support center in India, he called a support representative at the Round Rock, 
Texas headquarters to complain about the offshore workers' quality of service 
and language skills.  
.  
He was told that to ensure that he *always* got someone with fluent English 
skills that he'd have to buy a *Gold* customer support contract.  So, in other 
words, to ensure that you get what Dell so proudly advertises on TV as "Award 
Winning Customer Support" in fluent *English*, you must pay extra!