RE: the ASSET issue again

Dear Ken & Gloria,

the purpose of 4GLs and CASE tools, like AS/SET and ADK are, has never been to
be independent and 'not to need another language to do anything', but to allow
development process on higher level than 3rd generation languages (like RPG is)
and thus makes this phase in project cycle as well as code maintenance, more
efficient. How efficient AS/SET is in this, you might have your opinion, but
4GLs do not have main intention to be self-suffucient and opposite, they have
been designed to allow 3GL programmers to still have possibility to analyze and
maintain such applications by having possibility to access the generated 3GL
code.

>>'I'm sure SSA has made a bundle off of it when they should have kept it in
house and distributed straight RPG or C++ code'<<

 I am really not getting your point here, because you do get RPG code with any
AS/SET code and even if you don't, you only need to run 'source generation'
option from ADK and  you will get RPG code at your convenience to work with it
and modify it, if you wish (If you still don't like the fact that you still have
AS/SET source around, you can delete it after you've generated RPG source from
it).

>> 'Of course by distributing asset we should understand why it still writes
code in the original Program Model as poorly as it can.<<

I was not with SSA at the time when ADK was designed, but I have some feeling
that OPM RPG (i.e. RPG III) was chosen to be the language ADK will generate
source for, simply because at that time RPG III was the language of preference
for probably huge majority of programming shops around. Although situation has
changed since and ILE RPG (i.e RPG IV) has taken much more in popularity, would
you bet that an overwhelming majority of programmers on this list would cheer
switch to ILE RPG at this moment? With several negative comments about
BPCS/ASSET I've seen these days, I would expect several complains like for
example that SSA is introducing some new language now, without taking into
account preference and current skills of BPCS programmers, etc., etc...

>>Now What programs use the ECH file again?<<

I am not sure what you meant here, but I hope you are not proposing that we get
rid of ECH (order header) file....

>>How about those programs that cannot be displayed in one member.<<

I guess you are talking about large BPCS programs which cannot be displayed in
SEU and I am sorry to disapoint those who blame AS/SET and BPCS for anything
that doesn't work well, but this is not AS/SET or BPCS or SSA limitation, but
AS/400 general limitation and has nothing to do with BPCS, except that few of
BPCS programs are big enough to be affected by such system (PDM) restriction.
For those who do prefer  to look the RPG code instead of AS/SET code (this
limitation does not affect AS/SET 'sources'), there are several workarounds
available, but again this is NOT an AS/SET caused problem.

Thanks,
Goran







Ken & Gloria Cox <kgc@swbell.net> on 19/08/2000 11:32:39 PM

Please respond to BPCS-L@midrange.com

To:   BPCS-L@midrange.com
cc:    (bcc: Goran Mihajlovic/SSA/US)

Subject:  RE: the ASSET issue again

ASSET

A language that needs another Language to do anything.
I'm sure SSA has made a bundle off of it when they should
have kept it in house and distributed straight RPG or C++
code. Of course by distributing asset we should understand
why it still writes code in the original Program Model as
poorly as it can. Now What programs use the ECH file again?
Overhead, overhead, overhead, Wonder why SSA went bankrupt?
How about those programs that cannot be displayed in one
member.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-bpcs-l@midrange.com [mailto:owner-bpcs-l@midrange.com]On
Behalf Of Genyphyr Novak
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 4:29 PM
To: BPCS-L@midrange.com
Subject: Re: the ASSET issue again


Hello L S

You seem to be missing the point on this one.

>Who cares what the Action diagram looks like, it can be perfect and
>AS/SET will still generate bloated and unreadble RPG.

AS/SET does. This is the starting point for the code generator to create the
RPG source. First rule of programming is : Garbage in = Garbage out. Until
you view the action diagram which produced the source and say there is no
empty subroutine in that diagram, you can show me all the source in the
world and it will not prove a single thing on the subject I was specifically
addressing, which was why there are some empty subroutines called in the
BPCS RPG code.

Thanks

Genyphyr Novak
SSA

-----Original Message-----
From: L. S. Russell <leslier@datrek.com>
To: BPCS-L@midrange.com <BPCS-L@midrange.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: the ASSET issue again


>I am basing my opinons on reading the source code on our system, would
>you like some samples?
>You seem to think AS/SET is god's gift to software design, it really is
>just a flawed tool that generates what can only be described as a
>pitiful excuse for RPG.
>
>Who cares wht the Action diagram looks like, it can be perfect and
>AS/SET will still generate bloated and unreadble RPG.
>
>Genyphyr Novak wrote:
>>
>> The "No I don't use AS/SET" comment says it all for me. Not sure what you
>> are basing your opinions on here, if you are just looking at the RPG
source,
>> rather than what it is generated from (ie, the Action Diagram).
>>
>> The generator does not generate empty subroutines from a well-written
>> written action diagram. This is the fault of someone commenting out only
a
>> portion of the action diagram, probably in the process of fixing a BMR,
and
>> not getting references to the subroutine properly removed in the rest of
the
>> code.
>>
>> By the way, I never said there were not empty subroutines in the RPG
source.
>> My point is that the reason for them existing has nothing to do with some
>> flaw in the AS/SET tool itself.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Genyphyr Novak
>> SSA
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: L. S. Russell <leslier@datrek.com>
>> To: BPCS-L@midrange.com <BPCS-L@midrange.com>
>> Date: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 8:33 AM
>> Subject: Re: the ASSET issue again
>>
>> >No, I don't use AS/SET.  But I have looked at more than enough AS/SET
>> >code to know that, yes Virginia there are empty sub routines.
>> >
>> >Genyphyr Novak wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hello,
>> >>
>> >> Subroutines getting executed with no code to run inside them is not
from
>> the
>> >> tool itself generating this, but is due to the person who did the
>> coding -
>> >> most likely some BMR had a subroutine commented out, but not all
>> references
>> >> to it were removed elsewhere, so it is called and does nothing. Sorry
to
>> >> say, this is not the fault of the tool. Are you are using AS/SET? It
>> sounds
>> >> like you have never looked at the action diagrams to check to see what
>> they
>> >> look like.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks
>> >>
>> >> Genyphyr Novak
>> >> SSA
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: L. S. Russell <leslier@datrek.com>
>> >> To: BPCS-L@midrange.com <BPCS-L@midrange.com>
>> >> Date: Monday, September 18, 2000 2:54 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: the ASSET issue again
>> >>
>> >> >A loop is a loop, but a loop executed 15 times unnecessarily in
effect
>> >> >slows down a program.
>> >> >Things like statementless loops, and sub routines (with nothing but
>> >> >BEGSR and ENDSR) are common in the AS/SET generated code we work in
>> >> >here.
>> >> >
>> >> >Betty, back me up :) lol
>> >> >
>> >> >helen@dekko.com wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I do not agree that the ASSET generated programs take longer to
>> execute.
>> >> >> The development time has been reduced significantly using this tool
>> and I
>> >> >> believe that it is not all that difficult to debug using STRISDB.
>> It's
>> >> >> simply a matter of becoming familiar with the naming conventions
and
>> >> >> getting accustomed to reading ASSET source.
>>






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